This month, Kody’s joined by film producers Amber Lindley, B.D. Gunnell, and ACS Executive Director Kathryn Tucker to talk all things producing—from breaking into the industry, to navigating budgets, to adapting novels for the screen.
Kody sits down with a panel of producers to talk about their experiences in the industry. Amber Lindley is an independent screenwriter and producer, and the co-founder of Northwest Arkansas’s Chasing Sunsets Productions. B.D. Gunnell, originally from Louisville, Kentucky, is a line producer whose credits include Mob Town, The Watermark, and more. Kathryn Tucker, in addition to being Executive Director of ACS, is a Directors Guild-trained producer and director.
Reel Talk Arkansas is a production of the Arkansas Cinema Society. It's produced by Christian Leus and Kody Ford.
Kody Ford [voiceover]: Welcome to Reel Talk Arkansas. I’m your host, Kody Ford, with Arkansas Cinema Society. Today, we have a great panel put together of producers. Producing is an extremely vital role in filmmaking—without it, you don’t have the movie, really. We often think about the director, the screenwriter, the actors, and all of that, but, without producers, it never gets made. So, we have three great women here who are going to talk about their experiences in producing.
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KF: Today, we have a great panel put together of producers. We have Amber Lindley from Northwest Arkansas, B.D. Gunnell, uh, from Louisville, Kentucky, and Arkansas’s own Kathryn Tucker, who is also our executive producer here at ACS. Thank you all for being here, everybody.
Kathryn Tucker: Thank you, Kody.
KF: Well, before we get started, let me kind of tell the audience a little bit about each of you. So, Amber Lindley is an independent screenwriter, producer, has won awards for the short "The Sowers," uh, won awards for the script Madelyn Wild at the Wild Bunch Film Festival in Arizona. Amber also runs Chasing Sunsets Productions, LLC, which the project, uh, shorts, "The God Particle," excuse me, was an official selection of the Louisiana Film Prize a few years ago. And Amber also acquired the rights to over 20 novels by the legendary Western novelist and Arkansan Dusty Richards. And Dusty's 150th novel, Amber worked with James Cotten to, um, create a feature film, Painted Woman, and that came out a couple of years ago and won some awards and everything. Amber has also secured deals with the likes of Amazon, Walmart, and Starz, and is currently producing the documentary The Western District, which we touched on a little bit in last month's podcast when Amber stopped by to talk about, you know, working during, uh, COVID. Amber also has been a consulting producer and has been influential bringing films to Northwest Arkansas, including All For Her. So, I want to thank Amber for being here. Next up, we have B.D. Gunnell. I mentioned, from Louisville, Kentucky, but has some Arkansas connections we'll discuss in a bit. B.D. began around 10 years ago, uh, you know, humble beginnings and micro-budget indie films and has worked through, uh, worked her way up as a line producer and has, you know, developed quite a reputation. B.D. is a go-to person when it comes to completing films with rigorous, rigorous timelines, uh, two films with severe budget constraints. And B.D. is currently producing films in the two to ten million dollar range, which is a big thing. Some of B.D.’s big credits include, uh, working for Lifetime, Hazy Mills, and other independent companies. Uh, but also has this film Mob Town with David Arquette, Jamie-Lynn Sigler, and some others, uh, The Watermark, uh, starred Michael Shannon and Kate Hudson, and has also worked with other really legendary actors, such as Richard Dreyfuss, um, Matthew Broderick, Don Johnson, and then even people like Zach Braff, Robert Davi, as well, you know, Ashley Greene. And that is something that Kathryn and B.D. have in common. They've both produced films with Ashley Greene in it. So, and that brings us to Kathryn Francis Tucker, uh, the best boss ever, and the woman that signs my checks and you gotta love her, but our executive director here at ACS.
KT: I'll pay you later, Kody.
KF: Alright, I love it. But Kathryn has quite the CV that some people, some of you may be aware of, but somebody who may not—uh, Kathryn, being a native Little Rocker who started out, you know, as a photo editor for Miramax, working on promotional campaigns for everything from Kill Bill to Gangs of New York to Frida and, uh, worked originally, produced, uh, the critically acclaimed independent feature Loggerheads that was shot and premiered at Sundance in 2005. Uh, Kathryn also went through the Directors Guild training program in Los Angeles and as a DGA trainee worked on television series, which was Private Practice, Bones, Maid of Honor, She's Out of My League, and four films, as well. And so, um, Kathryn is currently a member of the Directors Guild and has worked as a second assistant director on the pilot episode of Glee, big deal there, and, uh, you know, even got some nominations for Glee's directing team. So, Kathryn has also gone on to work, uh, it's quite, quite the resume you have, Kathryn, and so we're going to brag a little bit on you here. Uh, but some really big movies that you've got to produce, you know, you've got to be a second assistant director on such as, uh, you know, This is 40, Oblivion, Gangster Squad, um, Sex Tape, and several others. And then you went on to come back to Arkansas and you worked with the Miller Brothers, producing All the Birds Have Flown South, and then, uh, worked with, uh, you know, Daniel Campbell and Graham Gordy and the crew—Jayme Lemons, Gary Newton, and everybody—on Antiquities. That was shot, and then you got to do your own documentary here. Uh, I was like, we're about to roast you or something. It's like a Friar's Club thing.
KT: Good job, Kody. I need to have you do all of my intros.
KF: I am your hype man, whenever you need me. But you did the, uh, you, you won an Emmy for, uh, the Gov. Mike Beebe documentary for Arkansas PBS, right?
KT: For directing, I will say, which is really what I want to do.
KF: Yeah, absolutely. And we hope you can soon. So, I want to thank all of you for being here. We're going to have a fun conversation today on production. So, I think we're going to just start off with, everybody's got to get their foot in the door somewhere. So, uh, Amber, I want to throw this one out to you first. Let's talk about how you got into producing.
Amber Lindley: So, I always say that I am an accidental producer. Uh, I did not have any dreams of being a filmmaker whenever I was younger. Um, it never crossed my mind to be in the entertainment industry. Um, however, I did start exploring screenwriting. I've always written things and I started exploring screenplays—how to write them, taking classes, learning that art form, and then just kind of got into the film community. Now, Kody, this was, I don't know, 10 years ago. And, um, when I started going to local events, specifically in really central Arkansas, I was not, um, known for anything, you know, just kind of went and put myself out there. There weren't a lot of women, um, around. And I think actually that that kind of helped people recognize me, um, because there were just a handful of women in the local film community at that time. So, I actually started out as a screenwriter and one day somebody asked me if they would, um, you know, if I'd be interested in helping produce a short film. And I said, you know, I don't really know anything about it, but yes, I can, I can help out wherever I need to help out. And I found that I had that skillset. So, that's kind of where it all started. Not a very glamorous story. Um, because like I said, I never really considered working in filmmaking at all, but after kind of getting the bug and just loving the process and the communication of it all, um, you know, I haven't, haven't turned back yet. So, um, that's sort of where I started. And it was, it was right here in Arkansas.
KF: You sort of gracefully stumbled into filmmaking, correct?
AL: Yes.
KF: Keep that one. I like that one, but, but yeah. So, and I think that happens to a lot of people. It's like, they just sort of, you know, “Oh, well, I'm doing this now.” And B.D., I think you, you sort of had, there, there's some similarities here, right? Like, cause you didn't set out to be a producer, It just kind of happened, right?
B.D. Gunnell: More or less. I mean, actually I got my start in the industry in makeup years before that. I, my, uh, partner had wanted to be in the film industry his whole life. Like, when I met him, he said he wanted to be a director. And I was like, “That's not a real job.” Like, cause I grew up in the Midwest and you know, working in film was not something that you could do growing up in the Midwest. Like, if you wanted to be in television, you were in broadcast or journalism or media. It was never, “I'm going to Hollywood.” That was the thing that they made fun of in the TV shows and the movies and everything that we watched, you know, growing up in Indiana. And so, um, when I, I moved to California, I met my partner and you know, he said that, I was like, “Oh, okay.” He goes, “Well, what do you want to do?” And I told him how I used to do makeup. I would be in the play and I'd be, you know, the lead or the supporting in the play. And I would show up four hours early to do my makeup and then everybody else's makeup and then go on stage. And so he's like, “Well, one, you do makeup on my projects.” So, I started doing shorts and things like that, starting out. And then, um, I had a stint where I was in nursing school and was shifting pre-med and working at the hospital and not liking what I was seeing. It was very financially-driven. So, uh, I decided to go to makeup school. So, I was working at the hospital during the day, going to makeup school at night and working on movies on the weekends. And the first movie I was brought in, I was a free PA. I wanted to just go PA in the makeup department and that's all I wanted to do. Uh, they were spending a lot of money. Like, I was watching what was happening, it seemed like a lot of money was going out. And the guy was putting us up that night, cause it was in Santa Barbara. He took us all to dinner and he spent, I saw the bill, it was like a thousand dollars on dinner. And so the next day I said to him, I said, you know, “I hope I'm not out of place in saying this, but how much are you making this movie for?” And he was like, “Oh, you know, $35,000 in steak dinners.” Like what, what are you? He goes, “Excuse me.” And I said, “Well, I'm not trying to be rude, but you just spent a thousand dollars on dinner. That's 1/35th of your movie. Like how much money have you spent so far?” And he's like, “Ah, I don't know.” And I'm like, “How much money do you have left?” And he was like, “I don't know.” What? I'm like, “How far are you into filming?” He's like, “Oh, well we just started.” And I was like, “Would you like me to take all of your receipts? And like everything you have and create a budget and run your payroll and like do all of that? Because nobody's doing that.” And he was like, “Yeah, if you want to.” So, the first movie I ever worked on, which I was supposed to be a PA in the makeup department, um, I ended up line producing and got an assistant line producer credit, which is hilarious, because at the time I was like, that credit doesn't exist, but it does actually. Um, and then of course I went right back into makeup because that's what I thought I wanted to do. And it wasn't until the strike. Like, we moved to Louisiana, kind of chasing the industry there with everybody else in 2007 and the strike happened, the crash happened. And then I got pregnant with my son and we of course being, you know, freelance, didn't have insurance at the time. And California was a much better place to be when you needed social services. So, we moved back to California and that's where we had our son. And, and when I tried to get back into makeup, nobody was—like, the people who used to hire me were gone. You know, people left, people quit, somebody died, like the people who hired me just weren't there. And I wasn't going to work for free because I'd been doing makeup for so long. But at that point I'd been building budgets and schedules and breakdowns. And my friends who were producers were like, “You're line producing.” Like, you're producing, you should go do that. And so I went off and I produced my first movie and it was $20,000. And don't ask me how we did it because we paid everybody. We had insurance, catering, crafty, you know, we, we managed to like, actually do it all right. I think the only thing we didn't have was permits, but I didn't know about permits back then. So, you know, you don't know what you don't know. Um, and, and we got to the end of it and I almost died a couple of times cause I was everything. I was art. I was PA. I was line producer. I was producer. I was accountant. I was lawyer. I was doing everything and running back and forth with catering all the time. And I almost wrecked the car twice. And that was kinda my, like, “I can't.” This was my movie where I learned you can't do everything. Uh, and then my second movie was all in, all in one location and it was about $45,000. And that one, I was just the entire production office. Like, I was the producer, the line producer, the accountant, the production manager, the production coordinator. Like, I did all of that. And when I would go to set, my director, who wanted me there creatively, it was like, “Why aren't you here? I want you here.” And I was like, “The movie can't run if I'm not in the office, so I need to be in the office, but it's good to see you. I'll see you later.” And, um, and so it was, I think my third movie was really when I got into line producing full on, I actually got hired as a line producer. And that was kind of what started that trajectory, um, into that. And I had a couple other movies where I came in as a producer, a full producer, but really focused on line producing. And I would say when the pandemic hit in 2020, I'd already made the plan to kind of shift out of line producing and focus more on creative producing and get my projects and products that people wanted to get done out there. Um, and the pandemic—pandemic, I'm sorry, I can't say pandemic today, I'm having a hard time with this—um, really made that possible because I was finally home and in one place and not traveling everywhere and, and contained and able to actually focus on doing that. So, that was kind of the very long version of how I got started.
KF: It's a wild story, though. It is, you were the proverbial one man band going there for a while. Pretty awesome.
BG: You kind of have to be in the low budget world because that's how you do low budget is you do six jobs because you can't afford it.
KF: Wow. Well, I, uh, Kathryn, let's, let's kind of take, take this, what we were talking about, and twist it just a little bit. So, you had this formal training with the Directors Guild. You've been doing second unit and all that, but then suddenly you're a producer. What was that transition like for you?
KT: Um, so I'm going to answer that question, but first I wanted to touch on something that Amber said that I, that is the case for many, for many filmmakers and for B.D. But, you know, filmmaking is not an option for so many growing up. And so I feel like part of that is just educating the general populace about, you know, you're not going to Hollywood to be an actress. Like you, you want to work as a crew member and make a great salary. And that's something that I learned working on the larger Hollywood films is that there's like 250 people making over six figures. Um, and it's not just a couple of people getting rich. Like, you can make a great living as a, as a filmmaker. And so, you know, that's one of the things I, I like to do with ACS is educate and can just kind of expose film as an option as a career. Um, and I feel like Amber, you know, your story is my story is like, you kind of stumble into it because it wasn't an option until it was an option. And the second you knew it was an option, you knew it was for you, but it wasn't presented to you as an option. So, you know, like being a lawyer, being a doctor, being a nurse or a teacher is, you know, those are all taught in school, but filmmaking isn't. And so, you know, if that was presented as an option for young people at an earlier age, they would, they would find it sooner and be like you and be like, “You know what, that actually fits my skillset.” And that's a great way to make a living and contribute to the arts and, you know, attract tourists for my state. I mean, it's, it's like, in my, in my opinion, the perfect business. And I also think it's so funny, too, cause B.D., you mentioned that you were interested in theater originally. And so was I, and I find that people—and, and photography, right. So I, like, loved theater and photography growing up. And what does that equal? That equals the movie business. So, you know, like theater, I feel like so many people started there because that was an option in their high school. Um, and so I just think it's so interesting that so many of us, you know, have very similar backgrounds because it took us, especially from the Midwest and the South, because it takes, you know, it's this long winding road to find your way to the movie business. Um, but to answer your question, Kody, so, you know, my transition was really—the Directors Guild training program is actually the Directors Guild producer training program. So, it's training—assistant directors are essentially the, uh, you know, the soldiers of the producer, they're kind of the enforcers of the producer’s will and plan and budget. Um, and so it was a very seamless transition, uh, to produce a film because I had basically been formally trained to be a producer, um, and then producing, um, producing a lower-budget film. The only thing that was the thing that was more difficult about that was just paring down. Cause I had been used to working on things with like a hundred crew members, so then paring everything down and figuring out like, you know, who can do two jobs and who could do three jobs. Um, and a lot of times, you know, always on independent films, you know that it's always the art department that gets hit with, with that. Um, I feel like they need so much more money and then it's, it's kind of, it's really a lot of the creative roles and like the hair and makeup. But you can't, you can't, you know, for whatever reason, the camera department, they never get shorted on their budget. People, directors always want to spend their budget on the camera, um, and the lenses. Um, and so, you know, a lot of the money goes there and then you start, you know. I know that that was the thing that was the learning curve for me. Um, if that answers the question.
KF: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So,let's jump into talking about early projects and you know, like, when it’s your first time, we're all gonna stumble, gonna fall on their face a little bit. So, you know, let's, let's talk about those moments of what you learned. So, B.D. let's hop to you because I mean, you definitely, you, you were running the show from early on once you got into producing. So, so what was, what would you figure that was like your first, like, it was like your real film, you know? Like, this was the one you've done you're really proud of. And as a producer, I should say.
BG: I, so for the two that I mentioned that were my first two that I actually like full-on produced by myself, I would say the second one was really the one that I was really proud of right off the bat, that just was like, “I produced a movie!” Um, and I think that was because that movie actually got finished and out to the world. Uh, the movie prior to that, there was some back and forth with the director and he had very unrealistic expectations. He had self-financed and it just, the, the fact that it was a completely unknown cast and, uh, a very, uh, unique drama with, with just nobody in it. There was just, it didn't really have a leg to stand on and I think he just ended up shelving it and nothing ever ended up happening with it. But the second movie that we did, that would actually hit the festival circuit, and I got to go to film festivals with a movie and meet people and build my network and we won awards for it. And it really, I think that was the one that kind of started that phase of like, “I am a producer.” It was also the one where I learned that film festivals are not about producers at all. And it actually was kind of sad where I'm just like, everybody's talking to the, to the director and the actors about, like, all this hard work that you put in and I'm sitting there going, “I'm sorry, what?” You know, and, and nobody cared. They're like, “Who are you?” And I'm like, “I'm the producer.” “Oh, so where's your director?” And it was just, you know, it was, it's a hard pill to swallow. I think sometimes for all the work that we do and, and half the time we're the ones championing it even before the directors and actors get on it. And yet we kind of get pushed to the side in those events. But it definitely, I think, spotlighted me, where my next after that was actually in New York and it was my first New York movie and I had it. Because my movie hit, like, three festivals on the East coast and I had gone to all three and I made it a point of, of, like, meeting everybody and building those relationships and talking about the movie and, you know, come hell or high water, I'm going to tell you about my movie. And, and that's what actually got me that next movie in New York, which was my first “L.A. producer in New York” movie, which was an experience in and of itself.
AL: B.D., I, I couldn't agree more. Um, I think producing is something that can be very lonely sometimes. And, um, people don't expect that. And sometimes it sneaks up on the producers themselves, you know, because you are surrounded by so many people, but at the end of the day, when you're the one responsible for everything, um, that can be a lonely feeling at times.
BG: A lot of people don't understand that like, you're by yourself up until prep. Like, you might get your director in and your writer, but you're still kind of by yourself, shepherding it to that point. Then you get depressed and you’re building to everybody coming in and production starts, and it's a tornado, essentially, going through of everybody. And then you wrap and you have post, but again, it dwindles back down. And I remember, on that movie in particular, I had never, nobody ever warned me about what would happen after. After being like the most important person and my phone ringing nonstop and being everybody's first phone call and everybody depending on you. And then it just stopped. And it, and you have like this depression that comes in, if you're not ready for it. And I remember the first movie that hit me on and I, it surprised me a lot. And what's funny is I don't get that now. Now it's like relief because I can go back to my family and I get quiet time and I'm not being bothered. And it's, you know, not that movies are bothered, but you know, it's having that quiet, peaceful time to myself. I relish in it now, but back then it was, you know, it, we went from being the most important person to being the person nobody called. And it was, it was hard. It was really, really hard.
KT: Yeah, it does. It does. It is. It's a tough pill to swallow. Um, cause I feel like producing is so creative and until you've done it, you don't really know how hard it is and how much sacrifice there is in it. Um, and I feel like something that happens a lot with, um, with especially independent films is, you know, the crew is used to the producer being the one holding the purse strings and on an independent film, you have a fixed budget. There's not more money anywhere. And so it's one thing when you're like a line producer representing Disney and the prop guy is like, “I need 500 more dollars for blah, blah, blah.” And the line producer says no. I mean, you know the money's there, you know. You know, but on an independent film, there's kind of a, they have—like, production and producing like that really gets on my nerves in indie film because you're really, you're all just working to make it happen. And the, the like grumpy crew members being like, you know, “I need more money for this and you're not giving it to me.” It's not, I'm not like holding money from you. Like, this is just all I have.
BG: That “us versus them” mentality. It's one of the things that I work really hard on my sets to quash from the beginning. And part of that in my world is transparency. Now, I will also say, I know when you give somebody money, like, let's say I give a department, I have budgeted $10,000 and I give them $10,000. They're going to spend all of it. It just is, it's, it's the rule of this industry that they have $10,000, they will spend $10,000. So, what I do instead, because I know then they're going to come back to me and say, “I need another $1,000 or $2,000.” So, what I do instead is I give them $7,000 and I say, “Hey, you know, if you need more, we can have that conversation, but I'd rather not, you know, I'd like you to try and make it fit in this amount.” And that's, you know, having that conversation, being transparent. I have had departments that are like, “I have to have this.” And they literally have maxed out what they have. And I'm like, “Great, which department am I taking it from?” And they get really quiet. And they’re like, “What do you mean?” And I'm like, “There is no more money. Which department do you want me to take this from? Because I'll go talk to them and ask if they're willing to give it to you.” And, and that can kind of create some responsibility within the departments of, “Oh, I have to talk to that person or they're going to know I took their money.” And now it becomes, I think people get a little bit more responsible with their spending like that.
KT: That's a great point. Yeah.
BG: People very rarely with me, every once in a while and typically it's because of a director or a producer that's pushing for something that was never budgeted or never in-script or a big last minute change. That's when it goes over and we have very little control over it. But when everybody's working on the same script on the same schedule and doing what they're supposed to be doing, very rarely do I have departments come to me and say, “I'm $2,000 over, what do you want me to do?” Like, it just doesn't happen.
KT: Right.
BG: I will say, Kathryn, I have to comment to your thing about camera being the one department that's not shorted because I will tell you, I have done, I have created some major deals throughout the years—and I don't want to point out who they're with because I don't want people to go to them, trying to get those deals—but I've, I've gotten insane camera packages for $12,000. I got an amazing camera package for a grant one time, which they should have charged us an additional fifty. And they didn't. I got a package like two high-end Alexas and all, uh, uh, anamorphic lenses. And I think we paid $30,000 for the whole thing. So, but I also know how to work with camera houses. I mean, I've learned, now I don't push as hard because they're starting to get mad at how much I pushed. But it's, but I do know, like, how their bottom lines work. And I do know, I know a lot of them will borrow cameras or they'll be renting cameras on behalf of other people who own them. And so I know how those deals work and I walk in with that information. So, when you have that information and you can negotiate at their level, knowing what it is, you actually can get those deals. It's just a matter of being able to work that system because in my world, everything is negotiable.
KT: Right? Yeah. That's so true.
AL: I do like what she said, but, and I have to say, in some ways, I really like to see departments go for more money. I like to see every department take ownership and want exactly what they want, you know, and, and, and try to get what their vision is, what the director's vision is. Unfortunately, then you're always the bad guy. I'm always the bad guy saying no. Right. But I do appreciate when crew people ask for what they want, and they're very honest about it and they have their goals going into it.
BG: I have creative departments come back to me and say, “Here's art, here's costume, here's makeup. And we know our budgets and I don't need to spend all of that. And I want to give it to art because they need it.” Or “I want to give it to costume because they need it.” And it's, I love it when that happens, because that means they're collaborating first, before they're even coming to me and I'm not having to drag them all to the table to have that conversation.
KT: Yeah. And I think that, you know, to that point, it's also good cause like, you've worked in makeup, right? When you, when you don't just kind of go straight to the top and you've had to work your way up. Like, I worked as a PA for three years. Um, I know what, I know what they need. Um, and so when you've worked in the crew, then you can kind of, you, you, you know where they're coming from. But then also, I appreciate when a department head will come to me and say “This budget, the way that it is, is really debilitating for the, for the story. Um, we have to find more money and this is why, and this is my budget and this is why I can't afford the costumes that are scripted. So, we either need to cut the costume, cut the character, cut a day of filming, whatever it is.” And then you can take it to the director and say, “We only have $10, you know, which, and we need $15, like, do you want to cut this costume? Do you want to cut a day of filming?” Or, you know, and then it becomes a creative choice. And then if they want to go out and raise more money, they can. But, you know, I do appreciate when it's, you know, when it's a real concern or especially like a safety concern or something, you know. We used to go to producers and the A.D. staff and request more PAs and, you know, PAs are the cheapest labor. And, and a lot of times they help speed stuff up. So, if one PA can speed up the day, you know, by half an hour for whatever reason or 15 minutes, like, they made their money back in and more. So, a lot of times you don't want to, like, step over dollars to pick up pennies. You know, if it's, if it's crippling the department to not have another guy and you're not going to make your day, then you haven't saved any money.
BG: I love that saying, I use that thing all the time, because I've been on a couple of those movies where it's like, you're literally stepping over $20 bills to pick up the pennies. And this is a problem. And I will say, what you were saying, Kathryn, is absolutely invaluable. The fact of working in the crew, learning what things cost. You know, my big thing, coming from makeup, is I also did effects makeup. So, I knew, like, I was building prosthetics and teeth and like crazy things when I was doing it. So, I know how much all of that stuff costs. I know the labor, I know how long it takes. So, when I go out and I get quotes from these companies and they're astronomical, I'm like, “Can you please break down how, what this is like, how much is this costing?” Cause I know what their actual cost is. So I, I can see what they're putting in for overhead. And typically it's really expensive. And, and I want to know why, like, if you can justify it to me, if you've won Oscars for your makeup and that's how you want to charge it, you have the right to do that. If you're completely unknown and you're completely untested and never done this before, you probably shouldn't be doing that. You know, it's the same with camera and it's the same with, with wardrobe and it's, once you've been in it and you understand, you know, it helps. The best thing that ever happened to me was, I had a coordinator on a bunch of movies. We worked together for, I think, four or five movies. And she came from the art department and I remember cause she wanted to learn how to line produce. And we were sitting down going through a budget one day and it was my old budget where I think I had a production designer and art director. Um, it was a production designer, a set dec, a props person. I had like a three man art team and that was it. And then I had money for props and money for set dec, and that was it. Cause I didn't know the art department, I didn't know how it broke down. And she started laying out for me all the roles, what they do, why they're important, why they need extra people, how you have one team here setting a set while you're here and you need the onset people. And then you've got the people wrapping the prior set. So, you essentially need enough people to be running three units within the art department at any given time. And, and when I, when my eyes opened to that, when people would start sending me their budgets to evaluate, quite literally every time the art department was the first thing where I was like, “This is wrong and this is never going to work. And whoever does take this job is going to kill themselves doing it because this is not enough people.”
AL: Right? And that's what ends up happening is somebody really has to sacrifice on the film. And you want everybody kind of on an equal playing field and you want how it's, you know, I'm sure you guys all had people come to you and they need more money or it's even more personal than that. Like, “I need gas money to get back here” and I'm trying to figure out how, how are we going to manage all that? Especially on low budget, indies and local costume crew, maybe people that, you know, don't have that many credits. But, um, it's still it's, it's uh, definitely, you play mother hen all the time, I think.
KT: Yeah. For sure.
KF: I'm sorry, Kathryn, go ahead.
KT: No, it wasn't worth mentioning.
KF: Apologies, apologies. Amber, I wanted to bounce it back to you and about a different approach. So, we've been talking about, a lot about the nitty gritty. But you, uh, you know, you licensed, uh, all the work by Dusty Richards. And so you took that from the ground up. What is it like to go and buy the rights to a book and then, you know, slowly work that process up to get what became Painted Woman, you know? So, let's talk about that early pre-production like, how did that go for you? Was that your first time licensing something out like that? It would just slow down on that.
AL: Okay. So, independent producing is—the most important thing is the money, right? And, and sometimes it's the hardest thing to get. Um, so people that give you money, they want their money to come back to them. They want to have profit. And you kind of have to work backwards as a producer, um, in the independent film world anyway, and figure out, “Okay, if I have this project, how can I get it to make money?” And then that's what you figure out. That's what you pitch to potential investors. And one of the things that I saw with, um, some of the novelists that I met over the last several years is that they already had an audience built in, um, and they had great stories and it was a place to start from. So, instead of maybe, um, you know, you have a director or you have an actor that is not very well-known, um, but if you have some aspect of the film that you can market, then that becomes just a great, a great way to sort of start. And a lot of authors want to see their books made into films. They want it to be adapted. It's a dream. Every author I've ever talked to, um, that is interested in filmmaking and having their stories become films, they always say, “When I wrote this, I saw, just, like, a movie in my head.” They all say that. And, um, so they're very open to talking about it. Now, you know, some projects don't work out, some things get put on the shelf. Um, some things that are really wonderful in the novel don't exactly work out on film. So, adaptations can be tricky. But, um, that's kind of how I started working. And Dusty Richard's the, uh, he has passed away now and, um, he had, Painted Woman was his very first film. Was his 150th novel and his first film, um, from one of his novels. And he passed away, and, um, when he did, you know, we had a special connection because I have a lot of people that I love or that they love me. But, um, Dusty was one of the only people that I can remember that, that said to me, you know, “This was my dream, you made my dream come true.” And, um, when, when you have that kind of connection with an author, it's really wonderful. And it's just a big team effort. And I love adapting novels. Um, I'm still working on things right now with authors. I'm always looking for books that could be great films, um, and authors that, you know, really want to kind of work in the process with that.
KT: Well, to follow up, um, you know, when you, I'm so curious about this process. Cause I've never, it's a great question today, cause I've never done this. So, when you want to option a book, um, can you talk about, like, just the nuts and bolts of that process? Like, so you say you find a book and you want to option it. What do you do?
AL: You go to the author and, you know, ask them if they're interested. Sometimes they are, sometimes not. Um, and then of course you always have to talk to their agents and managers and lawyers and, um, you know, it's, it's a risk for them because, you know, essentially, you have to have a lot of rights to the novel and to the story, um, because you can't really, you know, film is so different than theater and definitely different than, um, novel. So, you need to have the ability as the producer and as the director and filmmaker to be able to change things a bit. Um, no matter how true you want to stay to the story, you, you're going to have to change things. You're going to have to change the timeline of events that happened in the novel. You know, it's, it's just part of it. And, um, I think it's important to talk to the authors about that in the beginning and for them to really search themselves and see if they're willing to kind of, you know, let their, let their baby go for a little bit because it's such a personal thing to them. Um, so you have to have a great relationship with the authors once that is kind of established. Then a lot of it is just copyright issues. And, um, I think it's always negotiable how much the author is involved in the process. Um, and you know how, how true to the characters and the things that happened in the book that we end up seeing on film, it can get really complicated and it can get really emotional and passionate, right? Because they're artists and, um, you know, a lot of times they've never had, had this adapted into a film. So, the process itself is a little bit scary for them, but ultimately it's just a matter of communication. And I really do encourage people to, um, to work with authors. Um, I think that, um, there's so much great work out there. You know, there's so many great scripts. There are so many great stories. That is not a problem. The problem is forming the relationships, establishing the trust, and people working so hard to get a final product. Um, so yeah.
BG: How much do you rely on your attorney when it comes to the copyright side of it? Do you have a good relationship with your attorney when it comes to?
AL: Yes, I do. And I have to say that in Arkansas, there's not a whole lot of entertainment attorneys. There are a couple. Um, but I think it's more about having the relationship with the author because, you know, the author could always get mad about what's happening or they can always be disappointed or they can always question what it is that you're doing. Um, and you know, contracts need to be sound. They need to be everything on the up and up. SAG requires it, distributors require that you have all of that paperwork, you know, um, before they'll distribute the film. So, it's very important. Um, it doesn't need to be taken into lightly at all. But, ultimately, if you're having those conversations with your team, with the author, with the author's agent, um, and you know, who, whatever literary agents from their agency, then I don't know, I haven't had a problem with it so far. We've had disagreements, you know, people have different opinions, obviously. Um, things don't turn out like you want them to all the time, but that's the movie business. And that's why I think it's important to kind of school the, the novelist on that and say, you know, “It's, it's not foolproof, there's so many things that are at risk. Are you willing to kind of go along and take that journey?” Um, and, and just be honest with people and figure out what their expectations are. Because if their expectation is “Okay, you have a novel and you're going to get, you know, $30 million to adapt it and I'm, you know, I'm going to have Brad Pitt be the star in this film,” that might not always be the case. Or, you know, it's not with me, so they should probably choose a different producer. Right. Um, so it's just actually the Brad Pitt thing is, that is actually a dream. So, yeah, it’s about the communication.
BG: I would say, too, I wouldn't diminish the lawyer in this though, because like you said, this is chain of title. So, if you don't get this right from the beginning, you won't be able to distribute the project.
KT: So, don't do it yourself, unless you have some kind of experience in, you know, entertainment law. You can't do it yourself, you've got to have an attorney whenever, you know, you get to the point where you're like, “Okay, let me adapt that.” You can't take another step without it. Yeah, absolutely.
KF: Well, I, you know, on the note of more recent projects here. B.D., let's hop over to you and talk a little bit about, we kind of touched on it earlier, that you are working with an Arkansas filmmaker right now in pre-production on a project. So why don't you tell us a little bit more about that?
BG: We're, we're technically still in development because we're, we're still getting our cast and everything lined up. But, um, I'm working with Jamey McGaugh on his project. I think it started as a play first, and actually played in Northwest Arkansas, called Beside Myself. Um, and we just changed the title to the movie to Beside, but it's all based around, um, original music that was written by Jamey and I think his band, back in the day. Um, and the story, you know, it's this great story of these two brothers. Um, and they're kind of coming to terms with each other when they had to separate on their paths, uh, where the one brother goes off to become a star and the other brother's stuck at home with, with health concerns. And so it's, um, it's been a lot of fun to put it together. We actually are, at the current moment, talking to some major, uh, stars who are also musicians to play the two brothers, because we actually want them to sing. Like, the thing about this music is this, or this movie is, it's not a musical. It's, it's a movie about a band that has music. So, think, like, if I were to give you a comparison, think, um, Bohemian Rhapsody, not Rocket Man. You know, cause Rocket Man was a full-on musical, where Bohemian Rhapsody was a movie about a band with their music.
KF: And Almost Famous, even.
BG: Yes. Oh yeah. Almost Famous is another really great example. Um, but we do want our, our actors who play our two lead characters to sing the songs that we have on our soundtrack because we have a soundtrack full of original songs. And so it was important to us to find, uh, uh, actors who could sing, which then naturally led us to musicians who can act. And so that's been kind of what we've been in right now is talking to them, trying to figure out with COVID. Um, you know, we were originally going to shoot in Northwest Arkansas, but COVID kind of changed our plans because we're not a huge movie. You know, we're not a little bitty movie, but we're not a really big movie. So, to have to quarantine people for long periods of time because they have to fly in, that—our budget just didn't really work with that. So, we ended up moving the movie, uh, to, to New York because that way anybody who would bring, who would be based in New York, we wouldn't have to quarantine them at all. Um, and they, and the other side was, you know, their tax credits have been around for a long time and I've shot a lot of movies in New York. So, I'm very familiar with their tax credits. So, um, that was the other reason we, we ended up shifting to there, but.
KT: Could you, will you tell us what their tax credit is?
BG: So, actually, they just changed. It used to be 35% upstate and 30% in the city and surrounding boroughs, but they just lowered it by 5%. So now it's 30% upstate and 25%, uh, in the main city and the surrounding boroughs. But the thing about New York that a lot of people don't think about as they're running their numbers is they, they don't qualify a lot on their above-the-line. And for us, above-the-line is anybody who would be considered either management or, or head creative in the sense of a director or writer, an actor or producer. Those are your main positions that sit at what is considered “above-the-line” in the budget. And, and so New York doesn't qualify any of that. And those are some of your highest ticket items in your budget. So, would you start pulling that out? All of a sudden you're looking more between like 20 and 25%, you know, with that, with those numbers. So, you've got to be a little bit more accurate when you're talking to investors and saying, “Hey, I've got this 30% tax credit, but it's really like 24%.” You know, so you've gotta, you've got to know going into it, what you're, what you're getting.
KT: And it is a tax credit, not a rebate.
BG: The tax credit. So, it's interesting because there are some states, uh, New York, Ohio, and Utah, from what I understand, I don't know of any others so far where you have to set up a corporation—not an LLC—to get the benefit of the tax credit. Because if you set up an LLC, when you actually go to file your tax credit and get it back, it will actually follow the chain up to the person who started the LLC and then their personal assets become, uh, filed against the tax credit or any money that they have in any way. So, it can actually diminish your tax credit if you don't do it right. And so, what you end up doing is a corporation, which fully separates all of your, your producers, your filmmakers, specifically, who are the owners of the company, away from that. And the company itself stands alone as, as the taxable corporation. So, it's a little bit more work at that point. Like, I could set up an LLC in my sleep, but when we start setting up C Corps, that's when I pull my attorney in. And I'm like, “Can you go set this up for me?” Because it's, uh, short-term to begin with. We're only using it for the production entity. And then once we're fully done and delivered, we close the company. That way, we don't have to continue doing taxes year after year after year.
KT: Got it. Thank you.
BG: You're welcome.
KF: So, we've sort of touched upon, like, the pandemic throughout this episode. Amber, I wanted to throw something back to you real quick. Uh, that you, um, we did that whole podcast with you and Zak Heald, um, recently, and, and I know you talked about some of the projects he worked on, The Western District being one, if you want to elaborate on that. But also, I'm just kind of curious, how do you feel? Like, your momentum coming out of this quarantine. Like, we've been at this sort of depressed level in terms of production and things like that. How do you feel? Are you feeling good about the future for your career for filmmaking in Arkansas? You know, let's go with that.
AL: So, I feel really energized. Um, I feel like there's a lot of states that are still kind of trying to figure it out. And I think Arkansas filmmakers honestly are, are like at the top of figuring it out. Um, the cast and crew that I've worked with over the last 12 months, um, you know, they, they were willing and happy to abide by COVID-19 protocols and SAG-AFTRA protocols. Um, you know, everybody wanted to get back to work. Everybody was thankful to be working. I think that any of the time during, um, Arkansas never really locked down, but we did have a time where there was a lot that was shut down. And, um, I feel like a lot of the artists, a lot of the writers were very busy during that time. They took advantage of, kind of that downtime. I know I did. And that gave you time to think, um, not that it was hard or not, that it was just easy breezy to, um, you know, get past any depression of being locked down. That's always a very serious thing that happens, but I think it did give some time to think and breathe and to start creating again. I had created quite a lot, um, while we were in lockdown and I'm still writing on, on new, um, scripts. So, I feel good personally, but I think what's really outstanding is that most of the filmmakers that I talk to now are really ready to go and have been going. They've been working on projects, they've been shooting films, they've been trying to get, um, other filmmakers together and collaboration has been going on. So, I feel really good about where the state is in our film community. Also, I feel hopeful because there are still many states shut down and people are looking to Arkansas and people are looking at Oklahoma and Georgia and Kentucky. They're looking for, outside of some of the more traditional production hubs, um, to, to, to film new projects. So, I feel great. I think a lot of filmmakers feel great and hopeful. That's not to downplay or, um, not sincerely acknowledge the people that, you know, have had losses with COVID-19 and had depression during the pandemic or have been sick. Um, but those that have come out on the other end, so far, I feel they're very energized.
BG: I mean, I would echo what Amber's saying in a sense that it's, it's funny. Because, having shot all over the country and, you know, was in L.A. and New York and Miami, all these different places, my, my social media is this very interesting, like, flag of like all these different groups talking about what's going on. And so, last year when New York got hit so hard first, you know, I had friends and colleagues in L.A. they're like, “I don't understand this. Isn't that big of a deal. We're not really dealing. Why are they making us lock down?” Well, I have colleagues and friends in New York that are freaking out because their parents are sick or they're sick. Like, I had personal friends who got sick. I have a good friend who died and it was, you know, it was one of those things where I'm watching this from kind of the middle of the world, you know, uh, going on all over the country. And it was this very strange position to be in, just having these groups of people in my social media. Um, but I will say, like, my producing friends and colleagues that are getting back to work, they're, they're excited because they want to go back to work, but they're, they're not loving it. And I'm really looking for that. We can go back to the day where we can all go back and work and have fun and be a family and hug and laugh and be close. And cause that's part of what we love about this industry. That's part of us finding our tribe and, and you know, some of these people become family to us, even though they're not our nuclear family, they become our family. Um, and I feel like this mandatory distance and masks and face shields and tests and just all of this stuff has kind of added a level of stress and distanced us that much more. And it's now that much bigger stress of, “I need the money to support my family. Don't want to get sick and take it home to my family, but I have to go back to set.” And so, I think the mental health of what everybody's going through is now as important as the physical health. And I think we have, we, as producers, have to remember that as we're putting stuff together. Which is why I get so angry whenever I hear a producer that's just very dismissive of it because I'm like, you obviously don't understand the extent of it or you just don't care. And those are the people where I'm just like, “You know what? I don't, I don't need to work on that project. Thank you so much. I appreciate the offer.”
KT: Yeah. It's also a point of privilege, right? Because they've obviously not had anyone be affected by the pandemic. Um, so, or they're so brazen that they don't care, right? Like, like you said, either way. “Thank you, but no thank you.” Exactly.
KF: So, just a couple more questions before we wrap up, and I'll throw these out to whoever wants to take this one. Do you have any certain types of stories that you like to work on as a producer? Whether, Amber has, uh, has, uh, Westerns being one genre. But, I mean, Amber, you might have another type, too, as well. B.D., you might have one, Kathryn, you might have one. So, I'm gonna throw that out to whoever wants to take it and run with it.
BG: I was actually going to jump into that because it's, I'm quickly getting to be known as the producer that works on true stories with first-time directors. Like, right now, of the nine projects I have on my plate, I would say five of them, like four or five of them are personal stories of the director. And they will direct it and it's their first feature. Now, not every person is, every one of them has experience in the industry. One of them, in particular, has been working in the industry, I think, longer than I've been alive. And I love her dearly. But, but, they all have their story. And my job as the producer on the project is to champion them, telling their story, because I personally don't think, if I were them, I wouldn't want a stranger telling my story, either. But, you know, part of that, too, is making sure that they're surrounded and set up for success and to make sure that they have a strong DP and an excellent AD and a wonderful production designer. And you know, that they're, they're really going to walk into this—and like the best editor, so that they're supported as much as they can be, so that when they're on set doing their thing, they only really need to worry about them and the actor. And then everything else they can, they can talk to, but they can trust their departments to really run with it. And so that's, that's been my thing lately is true stories, first time directors.
KF: Uh, Amber, anything you'd like to add to that?
AL: Well, Kody, most of the local filmmakers, they know what I'm about to say is, if I could, I would just do romances all day long and never do any other type of movie. Um, however, I just like great stories. Um, I like great stories that appeal, you know, that have universal appeal, but also are very truthful, um, to themselves. And I like working with filmmakers that, that understand the truth in those stories. Um, I like Westerns a lot. It is a genre that is very rewarding to me. Um, you know, just kind of making these, these worlds that don't exist anymore. I like working with, uh, the wranglers and all the animal handlers and that kind of thing. Um, but I, you know, I don't, I'm not usually looking for, like, horror scripts or anything like that. It's not to say I would never do one. Um, but I do like Westerns. I actually just got off the phone with, um, one, uh, uh, Arkansas director, Josh Baxter. And, um, we are working on a new project, which is a Western. So, um, you know, that is something, I guess, that I'm starting to be known for, as well. Um, like you said, B.D., it, sometimes it just happens, you know, sort of just kind of like those first-time directors are maybe attracted to you or you to them. And, you know, that's kind of where you find your place. And, um, that's quickly what's happening with me and, and westerns for sure. Um, but that doesn't mean that I'm not open to producing all kinds of films.
KT: I mean—
KF: Go ahead Kathryn.
KT: Something I'll say, too, is, I think it's so important what you choose to do with your first project, because that's what, then you'll, your experiences and that's what you'll get hired to do. So, it really is important to choose, you know. Cause, like, I worked on Glee, the first season of Glee, and then all of a sudden I was a musical AD, so I got calls for other musicals and then that's the experience I have. So, you know, you, you really have to like, kind of like steer your ship and, and be sure to, like, choose wisely and feel free to say no to projects. Another one will come, um, and not just take everything that comes and, and really kind of like craft your, your portfolio, um, in a way that you want.
BG: I think it's also the world of being diverse. Like, I have my world. I don't know if you heard, Kathryn, but what I was saying was that I, you know, I'm doing a lot of true stories, a lot of very personal things, like, things that have happened to people in real life. I have a great heist story that actually really happened out on Long Island. Fantastic story, you know. And then I've got, actually, I do have a musical that's coming up that's based on this girl's experience in high school. And it's, I love it, it's fantastic. But it is that world of like, I have a musical. I have, uh, an action movie. I have a horror movie. They all might be true stories, but they do fit, just different genres. And that's really great when we're talking to investors and we're talking to sales reps and distributors because, like, right now, dramas are having a hard time unless they're very specific for what they are and they have a huge cast. So, the one drama that I have, like, we are going after A-list actors. And we know that it's going to be, I don't think the budget can jump over five because I'm not going to tax my, my director, who's a first feature, for a bigger than $5 million film. But because of her background with, you know, Skywalker, or yeah, uh, yeah, Skywalker Sound, um, George Lucas, uh, uh, Coppola, like, she has an insane resume of what she's done over the years. This is not her first rodeo. It might be her first time directing a feature, but she's directed other stuff. And she's been around this world for a really long time. So, I, I can go confidently to investors and say, “She can handle this.” You know, I've been on that set back in 2019. I line produced a movie that was partially financed by the guy whose story it was. But we actually went out and got investors for the rest of it. He'd never been on a film set in his life. He actually didn't even come from film. He came from cigars and, and he wanted to tell his parents' story and it's a beautiful, compelling story. And we had so much fun doing it, but it was a huge budget for a man who didn't know what a gaffer was or a sound mixer or anything where we, he'd never been on a film set before the first day we shot his movie. And, and so when, when I walk into the world, I'm like, “Can a first-time director do this? Do they have experience in this industry?” Yes. If that person can do that big of a movie with zero experience and the right people around them, then it is absolutely possible. I think the onus falls on us as producers to champion our directors and to champion the story and to make sure that they're set up for success and to not come back from the world of, maybe because we're kind of, we're setting them up at that point to fail because we're saying we don't believe they can do it from the, from the onset.
KT: Yeah. That's a great point. Yeah. Like, you're doing them a disservice if you don't tell them the truth on this, on the front end. Yeah.
BG: Oh, believe me. I've had a few first time directors where I'm like, “I don't, I'm sorry. Like, I love this story and I want to tell it, but you're not the right person to tell it.” Like, I've had where it's, it's kind of loosely based on their life, but it's—exactly. And they took a lot of liberties with it and I'm just like, “You can consult on this because the moments where it is you, I want you there to make sure it's okay. But this really is a fictional story that's loosely based on these experiences. So, and, and you really don't have the experience to take on the complexity of what this is.” And so, we have that conversation and it's never a fun conversation to have, but eventually we're able to either convince them or we're not. And I go, “Well, then, you know what, I'm really sorry. This isn't the right movie for me. I hope you find a producer that this works with.” And, and we gracefully exit.
KT: Yeah.
KF: Well, for our last question of the day, and again, I will throw this out to whoever wants to take it. I'm sure you probably all have, uh, thoughts on it. What advice do you have to aspiring producers, particularly young women who might want to get into filmmaking? This was the gotcha question.
BG: I have the joke. I have the joke answer, but it's not, it's not super nice. So, I'm not going to say it. Um, no, this is a very difficult industry and, and this is coming from somebody who's been in this industry since 2006. And I have had, I'm trying to think of a nice way to say this. I've had to wade through a lot of muck to get to where I am now. And I have had to work with a lot of very questionably, like, ethically questionable people in my time, not by choice. I didn't know they were that until I was in the midst of it and realized what was happening and then, like, had to figure out how to protect myself in that scenario. I mean, thank goodness I have not had the, the, the situations that I've heard of some other women having, because part of it's because I'm, I'm that woman that will literally break you in half if you try anything with me. But all that being said, like, I, I've been very lucky and I recognize that, and I don't ever want to diminish anybody who's had any experiences like that. But, but, this is a really hard world. And I think a lot of people don't understand coming in the number of hours, the amount of money, you know, cause I put my own money into things. I do a lot of development when I can't find funds or I'm just having a, it's taking me a little bit longer. And there are many times where I've put my own money forward for things because it needs to happen now and somebody has to pay for it. So, I always make sure I put some money aside and just save all my receipts to get reimbursed when the movie gets going. Um, additionally, when you don't have the credits backing you, you lack credibility and it gets really hard in this industry without credibility. You know, I feel like in the last two years is really, if you go, like 2019, not 2020, um, I feel like I hit my credibility in the last two years. Where finally people go, “Oh wow, you have a lot of credits. You know what you're talking about.” And, and it took all that time to get to that. And you, it's very hard to have two feature film credits and walk in and try to sound like you know what you're talking about. Cause everybody goes, “You haven't had any experiences yet.” You know? So I, I definitely think if this is something you want to do, uh, find somebody to shadow, find a mentor. Like, that's a big one. Who can help you, who can bring you in as an assistant, who can teach you bits and pieces there, who can help you maybe start, if you want to know the production route, get you in on the coordinator world and step you from there. Bring it off, start as an office PA, and then go from there, you know? Cause there's different avenues you can take in this world depending on what your focus is. And I think finding that, I love that Kathryn kind of started as a PA because that's really where you see everything and you interact with everyone and you go, “Yeah, I want to do that. I don't want to do that. I want to do that. Who is that?” You know, and you find your way around the set by PA-ing and just getting on set. So, that would be the first thing I would say. The second thing I would say is, you know, just know yourself, know your limits, know your boundaries very much and say no when something pushes that because it's, if you don't, then there are people in this industry that take advantage. And you know, even from a professional standpoint, not going anywhere bad with that, from a professional standpoint, there are people that will take advantage and you need to know you better than anything else, so that you don't get lost in that world. There’s a positive there, too, but I can't think of it right now.
AL: Um, my advice wouldn't be in particular for, you know, women as producers, it would just probably be for producers in general. Um, I agree with you, B.D., you've got to know yourself, you've got to know what your limits are. You have to know your words. You have to know when to draw that line in the sand. I think it's really important as a producer to surround yourself with the best people that you can. And if you find somebody that is negative and sabotaging and poisonous to the project, get, get them out of the picture really quick. Um, it's, that poison will run through the whole entire production. And ultimately, you know, when, whether you're in pre-production or you're sitting there working with the composer or, you know, you're talking with distributors trying to sign a contract, um, your job as producers to have the final product. And for that product to be, um, something that everybody can be proud of and something that makes money and something that is successful, uh, whatever success means to that particular project. Because sometimes success is not getting, you know, distribution on Starz, sometimes it's making the film circuit, a film festival and, and getting acknowledgement there. Sometimes it's just a passion project and it finally being made, whatever your goal is at the end of that project, you have to keep that in mind and don't let anybody, um, you know, talk you into anything different. Because at the end of the day, if the actor wanted to do a scene this way, you know, and they hate you because they wanted to play the scene in this particular way or they didn't want that scene cut, it doesn't matter. It's still your name as producer. You're still the one signing the contracts and you have to be okay with that, that, you know, that you did it with no regrets. Um, so that's my advice to anybody that wants to be a producer. And, and also to really be interested in the business side of things. I think there's a lot of filmmakers that are uncomfortable, um, talking about the business side of filmmaking. But, um, as my good friend James Cotten says, “It's show business.” You know, it's half and half. Um, so that is your responsibility. So, just because, you know, art department wants an additional $10,000, your responsibility is that final line, sometimes. And being okay, um, you know, make, making those cuts, setting those boundaries, telling people no, um, telling people that they're fired. You've got, you've got to be okay with that. Um, because ultimately it's, it's a lot of money. It's a lot of passion, it's a lot of emotion, and, um, that's a lot on a producer’s shoulders. So, um, it's, it's a hard job for sure. And like you said, B.D., and you know, everybody wants to talk to the director or the actors. Right. Um, but I actually am okay with that. Um, I would rather kind of push people to the, to the front, to market the films, but it can be very lonely. So, you've gotta be okay and understand, like, what your ego is. Do you have an ego? How far are you willing to take it? Um, so those are, that's my advice to anybody in producing.
BG: My one positive one, cause I was trying to think of a positive one in all of that, is, persistence is rewarded in this industry. So, as long as you keep pushing, you know, you hear those stories about 10 years to be an overnight success, 15 years to be an overnight success. They weren't sitting on their sofa, eating Cheetos, watching movies. In that time, they were out working, they were networking, they were building their tribe. They were making people know who they are so that when that moment came for them to get that attention, they were ready for it. And so, I think if you, if you're, you've got to be persistent, it doesn't matter how many no's you hear. It doesn't matter how many times you hear, “That's not the way we do it,” because there's, this industry changes all the time. So, there's always a way. And you just have to keep pushing until somebody says yes. And until you find it, and if you're, if you're not the personality to do that, if you give up after 10 no's, then producing might not be the world for you because we just keep saying yes while everybody else says no.
KT: Yeah. And I, you know, the only thing I would, I would maybe kind of second that B.D. said is that, you know, being a PA for three years, I learned so much about the, the crew. And I, and you know, something I noticed now is that, you know, people think they show up and they think their job, they show up at an introductory job, like being a PA, and they think their job isn't important. And so they do, they, they don't give 110%. And I think it's such a mistake because you know, maybe their job isn't the most important. But if you, if you can't show up and get coffee well, and cheerfully, then why would anyone give you a larger responsibility? And so you, you know, you, you have to be positive about the, the duties that you're given and you—I mean, so much, we've spent so much time with the film crew. You know, you really, it's so important for everybody to get along. And so, if you don't have a positive attitude and you don't show up with a smile on your face ready to get 15 coffee orders that morning, um, you know, you're not going to be given more responsibilities. And so, um, and I think that being a PA is a great way to get on set, um, be paid to be there. It's basically getting paid to get an education, a film education. And, you know, I spent so much time, you know, I would always get sent off with like B camera to like, go get some, you know, whatever, whatever shots, you know, anything that, without the, the cast. And so it's a B roll or whatever. And like, so they, and they taught me how to use their camera while I was, while I was doing that. And then I kind of realized, “You know what, I love photography, but I don't, I don't want to be in the camera department. I'm not that technical, I'd rather work with people.” So, then you can go and you, you know, you, you ask all of the different departments about what they're doing while you're there in your off time. And then the second you have a responsibility and you can go and do it and you do it well. And then whenever you have downtime, you're learning. And most of the people in the industry have worked really, really hard to be where they are. And so they're willing to kind of give, you know, give knowledge and share their knowledge. And, you know, if you have some downtime, go talk to the line producer and say, like, “Can I see the budget? Like, will you show me the budget and how you did this?” And a lot of times, well, they would say no, but.
BG: Sorry, I'm laughing on mute. They would, the line producer would literally say no or why to a PA who would ask that.
KT: They would, but most of the creatives are more, are more likely to share. But I have, I actually have some line producers that, that did show me their budgets and how to, how to work them. But I had a great relationship with them. But, and I, you know, the first AD I worked with, um, taught me how to schedule, um, when I was a PA. And so, you know, it depends on your relationship of course, but, um, if you don't have a good relationship, then they're not gonna share it with you. But, but I do think that, you know, if you do get those good relationships and you do that by remembering that the producer likes a latte with extra skinny, whatever, you know, vanilla syrup, and then it's, you use it as an opportunity to like, get to know them.
BG: Then have them take you on their next three movies. Because that, this industry is, I, I can tell you, I've sent out thousands of resumes in my time in this industry and I have never once gotten a job off my resume. It has always been a personal referral, or it has been, I worked with somebody and then they liked me and they took me on another job. And then I met somebody else. And that is literally how, like, job to job shops, job, how my career has progressed from even going back to makeup. Like, it, my book was different in makeup cause creatives, you have to have books and you have to show the work you can do. But in the producer world, it truly is word of mouth. Because you know, when you watch a movie, if the movie is not great, people don't blame the producer because the producer is the one that just got everybody in place. They got the money and everything, and then got it distributed at some point. So, you know, we kind of organize everything in that sense and we help with the creative, but we're not responsible for it. You know, they blame the actors, they blame the director, they blame the set design. Like they, they, they have other things they go after, but not the producers, you know? So, so that's the thing we have to keep in mind when we're taking jobs. I can see you've worked a movie and go, “Oh, you have experience with a musical,” or, “Oh, you have experience with major stunts or cars or something.” And I know you have that experience, but that doesn't tell me that you're a good producer. It just tells me you have that skill. So, that's where the personal referrals come in, which are paramount in our world of, I'm going to call and I'm going to ask, and I'm probably going to initially call your references, but then I'm going to call the people you didn't refer. And I'm going to say, “So how was it working with this person?” And I'm going to try to get down as much as I can to know what I'm getting into with it.
KF: For sure. Okay. Well, that is going to conclude our podcast for today. So, I want to thank B.D. Gunnell and Amber Lindley, and of course Kathryn Tucker for being here. I mean, this is really informative and I myself am not a producer, but, you know, I feel like I learned a lot. It's a masterclass for me today. So, hopefully it is for, you know, our listeners, as well. So, once again, thank you all. Look forward to seeing what you have going in the future.
KT: Thanks, Kody. And thank you so much B.D. and Amber for doing this for the Arkansas Cinema Society.
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KF (voiceover): Reel Talk Arkansas is produced by Christian Leus and Kody Ford. Theme music by Amos Cochran. Thank you for listening and tune in next time. To find out more about Arkansas Cinema Society, visit our website: arkansascinemasociety.org.