Our host Kody Ford is joined by Arkansas film buffs Philip Martin, Bo Counts, and Niketa Reed to talk Oscars shop ahead of the 93rd Academy Awards.
The Oscars are finally here! In this episode, Kody sits down with Arkansas Democrat-Gazette film columnist Philip Martin, Drive-In Speaker Box's Bo Counts, and Niketa Reed of Arkansas Soul to talk predictions, snubs, and Hollywood in the COVID era.
Reel Talk Arkansas is a production of the Arkansas Cinema Society. It's produced by Christian Leus and Kody Ford.
Kody Ford (VO): Welcome to Reel Talk Arkansas. I'm your host, Kody Ford - outreach and education director for Arkansas Cinema Society. Thanks again for tuning in. We've been very pleased with the response so far for the podcast, and we look forward to bringing you a lot more great content in the coming year. In this month's episode, we're having some fun. The Academy Awards are right around the corner, so we assembled a panel of movie buffs and media professionals to come and chat about their thoughts on the Academy Awards - the good, the bad, and you know, a little bit in between.
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KF (VO): So for our Academy Awards panel today, I would like to welcome three very special guests. One of them, if you've read the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette for years, you probably know him, you’ve probably read him. Philip Martin, who is a, a film columnist and really their go-to guy on film. And he is here along with Bo Counts, who is an industry professional, uh, in the, you know, Arkansas film and also the host of, co-host I should say, of Drive-In Speaker Box, which has been around for 16 years. Originally started on KXUA, uh, 88.3 in Fayetteville, and now it exists out on the internet. It is on Twitch, Facebook, um, all, all kinds of, YouTube. And then I listen to it on Spotify, myself. So it is out there. And finally, an old friend of mine, uh, Niketa Reed, who is the publisher of a new organization, a media nonprofit for people of color called Arkansas Soul. So we were excited to have them all here today to talk about the Oscars.
KF: Today, we're talking about the 93rd Academy Awards, going to be taking place Sunday, April 25th, 2021. Uh, it's going to be a little bit different this year and we're going to get into that, but obviously COVID has had such an effect on not only award shows, but just also the film industry in general. So I'm looking forward to chatting about that and you know, we're going to talk a little shop about, you know, our predictions who we think might, uh, take it this year and what categories and just cover some other fun things. But first of all, I want to thank you all for being here.
Bo Counts: Thanks for having us Kody.
KF: Awesome. Okay. Well, first off, let's talk a little bit about the history and I know we have movie buffs here, uh, but I'm going to defer to our, um, our, our movie columnist with Arkansas Dem-Gazette, long time film buff. And we'll start with you, uh, Philip. So if you would tell me, like, what, when did you first get into the Oscars and what kind of drew you to them?
Philip Martin: Well, it's sort of interesting because the Oscars have always been this sort of weird thing that sort of set out there that people look forward to like, uh, some people look forward to the Super Bowl for some people look forward to, you know, um, and they don't really mean anything. I mean, sort of as I watched some every year, but I can never remember. I have to refresh my memory of what wins, because those of us who were in the know, who, who write and talk about film, I think we all sort of have this understanding that a little statue is no, uh, doesn't certify quality to a latter extent. It's, it's sort of weird because the kind of movies that generally when the Oscars are the kind of movies that are built to win the Oscars, they're not necessarily the best kind of movies. And I think we sort of all understand that, uh, it's, it's really been an interesting gig because they started out as, as like this little industry banquet, you know, it's like, okay, it's, it's like, we're going to hand each other, you know, pieces of paper and little statues. And it was kinda, it was a private dinner, you know, and they had like 270 people at the first one. Yeah.
BC: And tickets were like five bucks. Like everybody could go.
PM: I think you just got to show up. Yeah. I think you could just show up and, you know, and, and then it gets to be a thing where, you know, sort of some people are, Gary Cooper and people are kind of embarrassed by this sort of spectacle of rich people, handing awards back and forth. And I think sometime around, you know, around 1939, around that miracle year of, uh, Gone with the Wind and all that, it's sort of caught hold in the American, you know, imagination. Then we started looking forward to it, to being the subject, uh, by the fifties, you know, everybody's looking toward the Academy Awards and during the late sixties, that's where, you know, people started, uh, making little political statements there, you know? And you have Marlon Brando, you know, having, sending Sacheen Littlefeather up to receive his award and stuff like that. And became, it becomes more of a platform, more of a, more of an event in itself that I think is actually less about the quality of the films. Um, and like I said, if you look through the recent winners, you know, I mean, I think they do a pretty good job of identifying a kind of, uh, film. I never hate the Oscar winner, exactly. I don't ever want to make an argument that it's the worst film or a bad film. I mean, but we have the Green Book winning, which I think that, uh, in retrospect, I think most people would look at that, look back at that and think that's kind of a slight film to, you know, represent some culture for that here. But then you also have something like, uh, like last year with Parasite winning and, you know, and I think that, uh, you had a popular reaction against that. Uh, we had the guy in the White House, you know, complaining about, uh, you know, this foreign film winning, winning the awards. This is going to be an interesting year because, uh, it's, it's unprecedented, we've had a weird COVID year. A lot of things didn't come out. It sort of opened up the, um, a window for a lot of it's sort of like the NCAA basketball tournament. We had a lot of mid-major movies coming in. You know, we don't have a whole lot of big studio films and the films that we have nominated this year, what I noticed about them is just about all of them—I think with the exception of Nomadland—play pretty well on a small screen, you know, you can watch them on your 55 inch TV at home, and you really don't lose much of the experience. Now, Nomadland a little bit different because it's a little bit more cinematic, those vistas, the cinematography, plus you lose the experience of being around strangers in the dark room and that sort of civic ritual that movie going is, but the Oscars are still in this weird place where even though more people play video games and more, more people do a lot of things than go to the movies. And most people probably don't see more than 10 movies a year in a theater. They still are something that holds us together is something that we can talk about. It's this cultural glue, this reservoir of common symbol that we can kind of look to. So the Oscars still have the, and I wonder if they're going to have it this moment when, when a lot of the people I talk to who aren't in the film business and aren't doing jobs like we have don't know any of these movies at all.
BC: I mean, you know, just to, to piggyback on what Philip was saying there, you know, movies are, are, are, have always been a community centric event. And this is the first time in history where movies are the opposite of that. It's something that you enjoy in your home with, with interruptions and cell phones and, and video games and all this kind of stuff going on. And the format, the medium is changing and not just the delivery method, but you're, you're starting to see this sort of a transformation of what makes an Academy Award-winning film. You know, I mean, you, you look back just a few years ago and, uh, the world was in an uproar when a movie that was only on Netflix was nominated. Like, and then they were like, no, you can't nominate this. And then everybody was like, well, why not? It's a good movie. And I'm like, well, you know, it, wasn't in a theater and, and yada yada yada and awards rules that were 83 years old, you know, and we're, we're watching this thing evolve. And, you know, I, I agree definitely with Philip as someone who's been a student, uh, and historian of films for so long, like award shows or award shows or award shows, you know, and, and, and people love, uh, lists. They love top fives. They love being told what's good, but, you know, uh, Kody, you and I have a long history in the art world, you know how I feel about awards. I think art is subjective. You know, it's all in the eye of the beholder and it's, how does it make you feel, you know, a watching a story about a deaf guy playing metal is not going to affect me the same way as, as watching the history of Citizen Kane because I grew up worshiping that film, it's going to affect me differently. And, um, you know, it, it, it, it's really interesting to see how the Academy Awards have just been evolving so rapidly over the past, just like four or five years to see what they're going to become in the next four or five.
KF: Yeah, absolutely. And Niketa, I wanna kind of toss that over to you as well. How has it been, uh, your, in your experience, have you enjoyed being able to watch them more at home, or are you someone who likes to go out to the cinema?
Niketa Reed: So I feel like I'm more anti-establishment, I don't really care about the awards. I still pay attention naturally, but, uh, yeah, I just, I just feel, it doesn't really matter if the Academy validates what I like. And I think the people that roll with me and are film buffs, they, they hold the same sentiment and it's good to see more diverse stories being recognized. And for that fact, yeah, I'll pay attention to see, okay, who's getting proper respect due. But other than that, I want to see the weird stuff.
BC: So Kody, your three panelists don't really care about the awards - podcast over. Thanks for having us, guys. It's been a really good time.
PM: I think you can, you could separate, and, you know, the fact, I mean, from the spectacle, I mean, I think everybody does kind of enjoy the spectacle kind of, you like to see these pretty people sitting there and you don't like to see what ridiculous things are going to do and what they're wearing and how they interact. You know, it's sort of like, we're all, we're all looking for those kind of stifled, you know, kind of smiles when someone wins and you want to look.
BC: It's a show in and of itself.
PM: Yeah, exactly. I think that, and, and one of the things that's really interesting when we talk about, uh, Oscar-ology is sort of like, you know, like I have this thing every year where I, I get a panel of people for the newspaper and they pick the Oscars these guys have, and I don't think they're going to do this well this year, but they're always 90% and better at picking these guys.
BC: It's systematic.
PM: Exactly. Cause you look at the guilds where they go, you look at the BAFTAs, you look at all the other award shows, uh, and you can pretty much decide who's going to win. And it's, they're really good at it. I don't pay any attention to that stuff. So I'm really pretty terrible. I still do about 60% though. You know, I think we all have this sort of, I think we just know what the, the Oscars is just different than, than, I don't think there's any, anybody pretends that it's about identifying quality anymore. It's about identifying the best kind of Oscar movie.
BC: But the one thing that has remained the same is good movies are still good movies are still good movies and, you know, movies that touch people, movies that change minds, maybe movies, that influence behavior and, uh, like tap into the zeitgeists of what's going on in, in, in a population and during a time. You know, one of the things I talk about a lot on the Speaker Box is how movies are always a reflection of what's going on in our world. You know, you can't like you can't acknowledge modern history without acknowledging cinema. Even if cinema is about a guy flying around shooting lasers out of his hands, like it's very much a reflection of our time. And we're seeing a lot of that now reflected in our Academy Awards.
PM: Even in a time when so relatively few of us still go to the movies, we still have that sort of point of reference. I mean, everybody's going to know about Godzilla vs. Kong, whether they've actually seen the movie or not, it's still something that we can still talk about. I think you're absolutely right about that. I think that, uh, in this slate of movies, uh, you know, the, the best picture nominees this year, I, I don't, I can't identify a bad film in there that really, I mean, I can, there, there's a couple, you know, there's, there's one tier and then there's maybe another tier and then maybe a third tier, but I don't think any of them are, you know, are, are bad films and now you can.
KF: Yeah. Yeah. And I want to circle back to that here in just a second. We'll do our predictions, but Niketa let's, let's jump back to a point you made earlier about you found it, you found it interesting because they had been focusing more on diverse films over the last few years. And I, you know, it's, there has always been this sort of, uh, everybody Hollywood's always prided themselves on how progressive they were, but then when you look back, it's like, Ooh, maybe not so much, you know, but that #Oscarssowhite campaign from a few years ago definitely seemed to call them out and in a good way. Uh, but Nikita given that, you know, what you do with Arkansas Soul so much about lifting up voices that aren't heard as much, how do you feel like the Oscars has really like, they're really trying, or do you think this is just sort of whitewashing issue? What are your thoughts?
NR: Well, it is my hope and the hope of others that is not so much trying, or just focusing on diverse films and actually building it into your system in your rating process. You know, we want this to be natural. I don't want this to say, Oh, this is the year for Black films and this is the year for Asian films. Like be more inclusive, be more intention about it. I think that's what we're really asking for. So I hope it's not a tree and you know, where we were given a year or two where it was like, see - look at all these Black folks nominated, you know, it's, it's more of a natural type of process. Um, you're more included in that selection process.
PM: I think that that's going to happen. I mean, th th the, the, the frustrating thing is it's not going to happen until the membership basically changes until people have more opportunities until we have more different kinds of people who are actually in the Academy and actually making decisions and making movies, because even with the initiatives they have, the Academy is still overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly male, overwhelmingly old, you know, and that's reflected in the taste of the films that get nominated. I it's, it's just, and you see hopeful things. Like I said, last year, when Parasite won, I thought that was, uh, I was, that was really unexpected for me. And I think it was a really good sign. And if you look at the slate of movies that are, have been nominated this year, you know, we have a couple in there that are, that are, that are interesting, that are, you know, by creators, but you also can look and see who didn't get a chance and go beyond that and look to see who never got their movie funded, who never got a chance to, you know, to play in the game.
NR: Yeah, absolutely. And I think what we'll start to see is hopefully we'll start to evolve from having to rely on diversity initiatives, you know, we have people who are in the seat to make decisions, or who can say, Hey, did you get out of your bubble and check out this film over here?
BC: Uh, you know, not to exactly echo what everybody's saying here is, you know, the thing that makes this year—and I think that the COVID era so very interesting to me—is one of the things about the film industry. And, you know, I, I've worked in the film industry. I've been on set of many, many movies. I've been offered, uh, spots on big budget pictures. And the thing about it is it's not everybody gets to play in this game. And, you know, especially with the way that the Academy Awards have always been, it's like, well, you gotta be in a theatrical release. You gotta be in front of all these many audiences, but now almost anybody can make a movie and get it out to the public. And if we're measuring based on purely merit and creative ability in content, we're going to start seeing an evolution in what gets out there to the public, which means what gets awarded to the public is going to evolve as well.
PM: It's interesting because it's, you're right. We're seeing the breakdown of the Hollywood hegemony, you know, is sort of like, cause every Orson Welles said that the filmmakers, the only artist who can't afford his own tools, he had to go beg to get those tools from, from rich people. And now everybody can go out with their iPhone, with the consumer quality electronics and they can make a quality film now. So it comes down to how good can you make it? I mean, it comes down to the talent and you see a lot, and you've seen this in the last 20 years in film festivals, especially, you'll see these brilliant movies that are shot brilliantly that have decent performances, have everything. And then they might have, uh, you know, the writing isn't up, isn't quite up to quality or whatever, because, you know, it's just behind these, these people's other skills. So you're going to have that, but it's, it's, it's funny when you see that, because that's not in Hollywood's interest to do that. Either Hollywood is going to try to propagate this business model as long as they can and keep the means of production under the control, as long as they can and keep shutting out these voices as long as they can, because they're competitors. And when you have people, when everybody can make a movie, what's the purpose of having a studio?
BC: Well, yeah, one of the things I've said a million times on the show is granted films are still creative art, but what a lot of people don't understand and forget about really quickly in the movie business is it's a business. Movies are products, especially when they hit the theater. When they hit Netflix, I'm gonna hit Amazon Prime and HBO Max and Disney plus plus plus like they are made to make money. They're not made to make us feel good or change our minds or be politically correct, like unfortunately they're products and you know, where do we marry those two ideals? And I think it's the means of production is when the means of production get in the hands of everybody that can make a movie that wants to make a movie we're going to start seeing movies that mean more that aren't just made to sell tickets.
KF: Yeah. Yeah. Those are some really great points. And I think, you know, here at ACS, that is one of the things that we are working on. Like with our Girls Film Lab, we have some other projects that Niketa and I are working on partnering with Arkansas Soul that we haven't announced yet, but I hope we can in the coming months that can really get to those younger people who are creatives that aren't, you know, they didn't come up or they got to go to film school at USC or whatever, and work that studio system. So hopefully, you know, it's going to take everybody grassroots level, trying to get it out to more people to expand that means the production. So I think those are great points, but let's hop on to the fun part. Let's just, uh, you know what, we didn't have to go into predictions yet for some of the big ones, but let's talk about, uh, favorite films for this year. Uh, Niketa, let's start off with you. Uh, did you have any that really jumped out to you that you enjoy favorite films for this year?
NR: Well, I was still in Nomadland, like still visceral and real. I mean, come on, we saw a shot of her pee and off to the side of the road. I mean, it's just these little things in this film that makes it so real and you get the emotion, you know, you get the backstory that's, that was one of my favorites. Of course, of course, Minari. Uh, I couldn't, it was really hard for me to get into, um, Judas and the Black Messiah. Like it was a great, it was, it was hard for me to watch because I felt the betrayal and it's close to my heart, Black history and the Black Panthers. I was just like, oh. It was emotional. I'll put it like that.
PM: See, I wonder if that's a generational thing because, um, Judas and the Black Messiah was one of those films that really hit me because I was familiar with the history a little bit. In fact, uh, uh, LaKeith, uh, Stanfield's character actually was, when he died, when he committed suicide in 1990 or so I was actually trying to run him down to, to talk to him about, um, about some of this stuff, about the assassination of Fred Hampton. So I just wonder if it was, was this the first time that you, uh, I mean, I'm sure you were aware of the story, but, um, there's something about seeing it on the screen. That's sort of, you know, I just, yeah. I mean, it's just, but you didn't, you didn't, you didn't respond to it. That, that's just interesting.
NR: It was a great film. Don't get me wrong. One that history, knowing the history and being a Black person and a little bit of a rebel and an activist, you know, seeing them make these emotional connections and these bonds and seeing the portrayal on screen. Yeah. It's a tough watch. I don't want to watch it again.
PM: I can imagine one of those.
KF: You're glad you saw it, but never again, like Taxi Driver was like that for me. I mean, that was good, but man, I couldn't handle a second viewing. You know, Niketa, on that note. One thing I, I read an article recently and I don't have the best memory to fully quote it, but the writer was making a point that when we, a lot of times when Hollywood tells the story of the Black community, that they tend to tell it from like that point of view of the white power structure and in this, like the lead in it rather than just be like, Hey, here's the Fred Hampton bio pic. Here is the guy who betrayed him, Fred Hampton. And that's how you get into it. I mean, Niketa, do you think you, what if it had just been straight up the whole, like there, as opposed to like that, do you think it would affect any different layer?
NR: Well, I think I would've been bored because we know that story don't we, and I think a lot of people who offer these criticisms, like, “Oh, it wasn't historically accurate.” It's like, come on now, do you really want, how is you? You will be, we have to take some creative liberties, you know, way with this, you know, this pers pers perspective, the true, okay, we got it from the informant side, but don't, we all kind of wonder like, how the hell could you go and do that to your own people? And we got that story. We saw him struggling. I mean, what LaKeith Stanfield said he had to go to therapy, you know what I mean? That's how much it touched him. So I think it answers a lot of those questions of what we're already thinking. And we're getting a different side of the story, which is entertaining at the end of the day. You feel me?
KF: Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's hop over to Bo. What were some of your favorites?
BC: So, uh, I gotta, I gotta preface this with a, with a containing, uh, questions. Like, are we talking Academy Award-nominated films? Are we talking about movies that came out in 2020?
KF: Academy.
BC: Because just the shortlist, I have to say that Sonic the Hedgehog was one of the most hilariously entertaining. Uh, not because the movie was good, but because it was truly one of the weirdest experiences of how the internet can completely govern the way a movie is made. So, so I'm just gonna, I want to earmark that one, because that was just fascinating. Um, but in terms of Academy Award films, um, you know, I have, I watched all of them except for Sound of Metal. I didn't get a chance to see that one. I just didn't have time. I really wanted to see that. Um, but of the ones I did see, uh, you know, The Father just stood out to me as a film I'd never seen before. And, you know, a lot of the times when I'm watching films that, you know, it's like, how did, how did these, these heralded films that are supposed to be award-winning, you know, where does, where's the merit? And for me, it's like, I've seen a billion movies in my life. You know, that's what I do. I've made a career out of it, or, uh, some sort of hodgepodge of, I keep telling myself it's a career. Um, but, but that film I'd never seen it before. You know, it was, it was a story that's been done, but it was in a way that I'd never seen. And it was, it was a psychological thriller in a way that wasn't scary. It was, it was haunting and frightening in a way that was so real, that made me fear for my own aging process and my family's process. And it, it was a film that had a lot of frightening empathy in a weird, it made empathy and perspective, like a horror movie almost. That's what I see.
PM: Yeah. That's what I call them plausible horror movies, which scare me more than the other horror movies.
KF: Yeah and to me, in a way that's kind of what Nomadland is exactly. I mean, I tried reading the book and couldn't finish, the book is non-fiction. And I just kept seeing it as like this, like, is that going to be me in 20 years? Just something where I'm like working in it, you know, I'm living in a van and working for Amazon, like, it was scary.
BC: And I think that that's one of the most powerful things that movies can do is put the viewer into the seat and make you feel like you're a part of it, you know, uh, you know, not to note a big, heavy blockbuster, like, you know, why, why don't we have another Harry Potter franchise? And it's like, I think one of the successes of movies like that is because everybody can, can kind of put themselves in that, that experience and go, well, what if, you know, there that I'm a muggle? Or what if? It's, so it's plausible in a way, but movies like Nomadland movies, like, you know, um, The Father that, that can happen literally to everyone, you know, a lot of Academy Award bait, as I like to call it, it's historical dramas, it's stuff that's happened. It's retelling of, of moments in time that we all kind of know, and it's, it it's moments that aren't probably going to happen again, because they changed time forever. And, uh, but yeah, I have to say The Father and, and for someone like, you know, uh, Anthony Hopkins who, uh, you know, he's, he's, he's won a lot of awards, you know, I don't think he needs another one, honestly, but, um, but seeing somebody who's as old as he is to portray a character so believable in the same age that somebody like that might have, it was just, it was unsettling. And, uh, in a way that was good. And, uh, I was just gripped the whole time.
PM: I want to go back to Nomadland, because one of the things that's really interesting about, um, Chloe Zhao's work is that she uses all these non-actors, who were basically essentially playing themselves. And so you see these people and you in the back of your mind, maybe you, you realize that that's their reality and you've inserted this. Um, I think that Frances McDormand, for whatever reason is a movie star. I mean, she just has this sort of, um, way of magnetizing your eyes. And you're watching her all the time. I don't care if she says nothing. If she just walks into the back of the cafeteria, you're going to watch her. And it's a really interesting dynamic to have this sort of hyper-realistic kind of thing. And then put this, you know, the star in the middle of it. And I'm really was, if you'd have told me this, I would have said, this is not going to work, because what works is like her previous movie, The Writer where you have this guy, you don't know, and you, you know, you, you can like buy into a story, but it absolutely works in Nomadland, and I don't know exactly what the chemistry or the alchemy is that makes you do that. But, uh, you know, McDormand is wonderful in it. If she retains that star quality, even they've doubted her up and dressed her down and all that, but she absolutely fits among these real people. It's kind of a small miracle sorta like the small miracle you're talking about Anthony Hopkins performing in that's what elevates, I think, you know, the best of these movies. I mean, it's sort of like, I wouldn't put everyone on the, on the, um, on the roster here in that top level, but I think those two and Minari are, they all accomplish that, you know, something that you just can't understand how it happens.
BC: It's so transformative, you don't realize it. And, you know, I I've, I've, uh, I tell people a lot, you know, the, the best way to identify a bad actor is when you can tell that they're acting and, you know, a great actor, you forget that they're playing a role because they've transformed so much. You know, Frances McDormand - I remember when I saw Three Billboards, uh, which is just a hilariously dark comedy, um, you know, watching her in that movie where she, she, it was balancing this, this act of hilarious moments, but also tear-jerker moments at the turn of a dime and everything felt so real. I was like, Oh my gosh, you know, I just, this is the lady from Fargo. And, you know, I'm just blown away every time she just gets better and better and better. And, uh, you know, I think she's just really knocked it out of the park in Nomadland, because again, it borders a documentary in the sense that you're using a lot of people that aren't actors, and to have an actual actor mingling and intertwining into these stories that are both real and not real at the same time is really difficult to pull off. And the fact that Chloe was able to do that is just it's, it's pretty impressive.
KF: Well, um, let's talk about always one of the big, hot button things around the Academy Awards, the snubs. So…
BC: Sonic, I know we were talking about Sonic the Hedgehog—no nominations.
KF: To me, you know, we were talking about LaKeith Stanfield earlier. And to me, one of the biggest stubs of the last few years was when, Sorry to Bother You didn't get any Academy Award, uh, nominations whatsoever. And it's such a fantastic movie, and it's, it's funny and it's - there's social issues, but then it kind of spins out into that Michel Gondry type madness at the end. Yeah. It's just, it's such a wild movie, but he just holds it together. I mean, I'll watch him in anything, but to me, that's what I think back a big snubs over the last few years, that's definitely one of them. But for this year, one notable one, you had ACS who we've been able to, we got to screen Minari earlier this year. We screened, uh, “If Anything Happens, I Love You” recently online. That's one of the animated shorts. We also, last year, of course, at Filmland we had Nomadland. And then we had, uh, One Night in Miami and one that when me, I think it was just it's up for Best Supporting Actor and uh, did it get a screenplay nod? I forget.
PM: I think it did actually.
KF: I think so, but the big, the big, where's Regina King in all this, why didn't she get nominated for it? And to me, that kind of stands out as one of this year. It's kind of snubs, but, uh, do you guys have any that you felt like should have gotten or any individuals that took out attention?
PM: Well, I'm going to say LaKeith Stanfield. He gets nominated for Best Supporting Actor, which seems to me very strange because his is a lead performance in that someone, I thought it was a really strong, I thought it was the strongest performance I saw last year really. And, you know, and he ends up in the supporting category, uh, against his, against his castmate. Um, and I just, I don't know, it seems to me like that was a consolation. Maybe that's not a snub, but that's not a snub, but that's a consolation prize. You give him because, uh, that, and, um, you know, I can think of like half the documentaries I saw last year should have been nominated. I think there's so many good documentaries. There's just not enough space for them. You know, Dick Johnson is Dead, uh, Gunda, which was an amazing film, which I think is actually going to theatrical release, uh, later this month. You know, those are two films that probably belonged on a lot of top 10 lists, a lot of top 20 lists anyway, last year. And I'm surprised that, uh, they sort of, you know, didn't get anything.
KF: What about you Niketa, were there, was there anything you saw last year that you think should have gotten some attention?
NR: No, but I do want to, um, um, piggyback off of what he just said about LaKeith. I was baffled about that. Why supporting? I didn't understand it. And I'm wondering if he ever had any explanation for it. That was the biggest thing I noticed. You know, then again, I don't really pay attention to the Oscars.
PM: Yeah, I don't either, but I think this is, I think this was a case of kind of a voter mutiny because the studio was pushing him for lead actor and the voters just put him in, in a supporting actor category. And I don't understand that either. That's one of the strangest things about this this year, for sure.
KF: What about you, Bo?
BC: Um, you know, when it comes to Oscar snubs, I always have a very weird kind of Sweden-esque you know, uh, stance on things, because, you know, again, at the base of this thing. It's, it's an award show where we're picking favorites and in any award show, you know, everybody, uh, we're in a world where everybody wants a participation trophy and, and when you're only picking five or six, it's like somebody is going to get snubbed, you know? And, and, and I think that that's just the fault of award shows in general. So I never, I've never really felt like, oh, something didn't get nominated. I was like, well, you know, I mean, not everything can get nominated. Remember that one year where, like, there was 20 best picture nominations, like Batman, some other weird stuff. You're like, wait, this got nominated because they were trying to go, well, everybody gets a nomination. So everybody gets, you know, a prize and it doesn't always work. It can't work both ways. So to me, it's like, you know, we'll get them next time. Um, and so I, and I never really, I never really give too much thought about it.
PM: The voting rules, the way that the Academy votes for Best Picture, it's just Byzantine. I can't really explain it, but it's this weird sort of preferential voting and, you know, you're is, you're better off being a lot of people's second or third choice than you are being 10% of the people's first choice. Because if you're that, you probably won't even make it to the second round of, of balloting. And again, I I'm sort of with you because I'm sort of like, I don't really care who wins. I'm going to forget who wins 10 minutes after the ceremony, but I still don't understand how it, how it works. And I would have, like I said, looking at this, I think that, um, One Night in Miami would have fit right in with these Best Picture nominees. I don't think it was the best picture of the year and best director. I would have a little bit more of a, because there's only five slots here. So I don't know if it's really a snub, but it's certainly something that was, you know, would have fit right in with The Trial of the Chicago 7, which I think I had a similar reaction to that that Niketa had two, um, Judas and the Black Messiah, because I was really kind of ready to see that really kind of pumped for that. I knew a lot about that. Uh, and then I saw it and I go, well, that's okay.
BC: What an ensemble cast too. Wow.
PM: Well, and Mark Rylance is, uh, w uh, William Kunstler. That was, uh, that was a great performance too.
BC: But I, I felt the same way as you feel. I watched that film and I was like, okay. Yeah, that was, that was all right. That was pretty good. You know, it didn't blow my skirt up or anything, and I probably wouldn't watch it again, but it was, it was solid. Um, you know, and not, not everything is going to do that. I mean, one of my favorites to quote is like, remember when Chariots of Fire won. And I think he, like in the same year of like Raiders of the Lost Ark and like Star Wars and like all this other stuff it's like, and then Chariots of Fire, who remembers that, you know? Uh, uh, you know, and it's, it's, it's awards at the end of the day. And, you know, next year, this time we're going to be talking about the same stuff, but we're not going to remember the conversation we had right now about it. And, uh, you know, what's important to me, it's just like, how did these movies make you feel? Which ones, you know, um, are, are the ones that, that impacted you?
PM: The one time I’ll name drop is Samuel L. Jackson once told me this was the way the Oscar balloting went at his house. He took out this ballot from the Academy, put it on the kitchen table. He went down and voted for all his friends. He left it there. His wife came by, she'd pick up the ballot, she'd see what he had voted for. And she'd, she'd look and she'd vote for the, whatever she wanted to vote for it, leave it there. And finally the maid would come and vote for, you know, Best Cinematography and all the categories that were left. And I think that a lot of voters don't give it a whole lot more thought than that. I mean, I really, so sometimes I'm wondering why it's not even stranger. Some of the things we get.
KF: Well, um, you know, moving in this kind of direction, let's, we talked about the snubs and this weird process. Let's make a few predictions now. Obviously we don't want to run through all the categories, but we'll go through some of the big ones, like starting with Actor in a Leading Role. Yeah. Riz Ahmed, Sound of Metal; Chadwick Boseman in what was his final, uh, film appearance, I heard that correctly with Ma Rainey's Black Bottom; Anthony Hopkins in The Father; Gary Oldman in Mank, which I watched last night. And it was interesting. I like everything surrounding it, but it was also sort of had this thing of like, well, did this need to exist? I don't know, but it felt like Hollywood loves Hollywood nostalgia. It's fun for the most part. And then finally Steve Yuen from Minari. Who's just fantastic that, so, uh, I'll tell you what, uh, Niketa, who are you rooting for in this one?
NR: Oh my gosh. I think I'm going for Steve, man. That's my boat.
KF: It was good. Uh, okay. Uh, Philip, what about you?
PM: Who I think is going to win? I think, I think Chadwick Boseman is going to win, and I don't have any problem with that. Now, if that were, if it were me, I'd be torn between Hopkins and Steve Yeun. But, uh, but I do think Boseman's gonna win. And I think he, I think that's fitting because that was a terrific performance, but sometimes I think that those kinds of performances, you know, aren't as, aren't the level of difficulty, I don't think is quite as hard as it is to deliver a subtler performance. Just put it that way. So…
KF: Yeah. What about you Bo?
BC: You know, uh, again, there's a, there's a formula to a lot of this, um, and it's not always based on what you think the best performance is. You know, uh, you're looking down the roster, you've got, uh, Gary Oldman who, probably one of the greatest actors alive today. I don't think he's gonna win for this one. Um, mainly because he, the there's there's other works out there that are, that are stellar, same with Anthony Hopkins. I mean, an amazing performance for sure, but he's, he's already earned his keep. You look at Riz Ahmed, he's still, he's still fairly new. He's a breakout character from everything that I've read, I didn't get to see this. It looked like a pretty incredible role, but then you got Chadwick Boseman and Steve Yeun and, you know, Chadwick going from a blockbuster superhero to something as nuanced as Ma Rainey's Black Bottom. Like, you know, that's, that's a range, that's an impressive range. And then of course his untimely and tragic death, you know, that, and I, you know, just let's get real, that adds to it, you know? And that's how, you know, one of the reasons I'm not a huge big of these Academy Awards is because those kinds of things play into it. Um, uh, Steve Yeun, wow. Like the performance that he pulled off, I'm rooting for Steve. Uh, I think that Steven just did that. I didn't expect that level of performance out of him. And so I was impressed, but I do think Chadwick's going to take it and I'm okay with that.
KF: Okay. Uh, so hop on, we'll just do some, like, say maybe five or six of these, but Actor in a Supporting Role: Sacha Baron Cohen in Trial of Chicago 7; Daniel, uh, it's, it's Kaluuya, right, with Judas and the Black Messiah; and Leslie Odom Jr., One Night in Miami; Paul Raci, I believe for Sound of Metal. And then LaKeith Stanfield, Judas and the Black Messiah. Who wants to chime in on this?
BC: Okay, I'll go. Uh, anyway, says, who wants to talk? It's usually me. Um, you know, again, the, the, the list here is pretty interesting because all of these characters have, uh, are these actors in these roles have shown their range. They're doing things that are a little bit different than their normal stuff. You got Sacha Baron Cohen playing, you know, uh, not Borat character, which is always refreshing to watch. Um, but you know, again, not as strong as performance, you know, you're looking at Daniel Kaluuya, that's, that's kind of where I'm leaning, just because he has just been knocking it out of the park left and right. And left. And right. Every role he takes is just fascinating to watch him on screen. Um, you know, and, and again, you know, I, I'm under the personal impression that the Academy voters don't take individual performances into consideration. It's, what's going on in the periphery also comes in. And I think that everything that he's been taking, doing the roles that he's been choosing, the performances he's been delivering, I think is, is, is really great. Uh, you know, uh, Paul Raci, again, another fantastic performance, but I just don't think that it's there yet. Um, and LaKeith, uh, again, another one of those things, um, I just, I think Daniel, Daniel deserves it. I think that's my pickup.
NR: Yeah. I would agree. I think Daniel does deserve it. Um, I think just personally think they gonna give it to one of the brothers - LaKeith or Daniel, that's just where I'm leaning. You know, but I, I do agree about, uh, Cohen. It is great to see him not acting a fool. You know what I mean? And you get to see this range with him, but I think is going to be one of the brothers from Judas and the Black Messiah, don't get it.
PM: Well, I think they're going to split the vote. I don't think they're, I don't think Daniel or LaKeith is going to win and I've already gone the record about how good I thought LaKeith's performance was. Uh, I think Paul Raci is, I don't know exactly how to say Raci, uh who's you know, this guy, who's a journeyman who finally found a role that fits exactly what he does. And, uh, he's, he's tremendous in it. And I think the Academy's gonna reward him. Uh it's uh, I both liked to see it and I think that's, who's going to win.
KF: So Actress in a Leading Role, uh, Viola Davis, Ma Rainey's Black Bottom; Andra Day, United States Versus Billie Holiday; Vanessa Kirby, Pieces of a Woman; Frances McDormand, Nomadland; and Carey Mulligan for Promising Young Woman.
NR: Come on, Viola. That's all I got to say. Look, I'm just going to be Issa Rae on this one - I'm rooting for everyone that's Black. Let's go, Viola. All right. Sorry.
PM: I think Frances McDormand is going to win. I would like to see her, when I'd think Viola Davis, this role was actually more of a supporting role. Andra Day, I thought, I think that film came out a little too late in a year, and I think it didn't get enough attention. I don't know. I don't even think it got any sort of theatrical release, The United States Versus Billie Holiday. She was just tremendous in that. And I, and I, I'm sort of two things. I'm surprised she got nominated and I'm surprised the movie kind of disappeared like it did. Cause I haven't really heard much about it. It's really pretty good, but I think Frances.
KF: Okay, so, uh, moving on to supporting actress and, uh, we have Maria Bakalova for the Borat sequel, who, I think she was fantastic in it. I mean, just some of those scenes, it's just like, oh my God, how was she able to pull this off? And she still brought some emotion to it as well. So I thought she was really good. Glenn Close for Hillbilly Elegy. And she has, uh, the distinction of being one of the few actors to be nominated for an Oscar and a Razzie for the same performance in the same year. Philip who's the other one on that?
BC: Sandra Bullock. She actually accepted her Razzie that year.
KF: Olivia Coleman for The Father, Amanda Seyfried for Mank, and then Youn Yu-jung for Minari. She plays the grandmother who, her, and I would have, speaking of a snub and I kind of understand cause he's young, but I would have loved to see the little boy who's Alan…
PM: Andy, what's his name? Andy something, right? Yeah. Alan, Alan. Yeah. Alan Kim.
KF: Yeah, I think Alan Kim. Yeah, the scenes with them in Minari, were, hands down, I mean, that's the reason it got all the nominations. It did, you know, I mean, everybody's great in that film, but they just stole every scene that they were in. So, uh, predictions, uh, Niketa. What do you think?
NR: You know what, y'all got to talk me into this one. Let's hear it, okay.
PM: Let me first say this about Minari. Minari needs to win something that, you know. It's like the ensemble in Minari, it was just wonderful. And I think Youn, uh, Youn is probably the best chance they have of winning one I would like to see that. I have to say Olivia Coleman in The Father is really good though. She's, she's tremendous, I mean that. Talk about body of work. She's, she's due to win something. Um, and I think the Academy is going to reward her, but I'd really like to see it go to, um, to Minari, that's, I really do think that's the film that reminded me the most of was Minari. It's just this beautiful memory play. I don't doubt that everything in that movie did happen in some, in some, in some ways. It's filtered through the, you know, through the memory of that little kid.
KF: Well let's hop over to directing because, uh, yeah. Uh, Lee Isaac Chung was not nominated in that category. I believe he's won a few awards for directing at various festivals and was nominated at the Globes.
PM: No, he was nominated for director.
KF: He is? Okay.
PM: Lee is.
KF: Well, good. That's good. I was totally looking at my, uh, my list wrong, but okay. Yeah. So Another Round, which is a movie I'm not familiar with. Thomas Vinterberg for that. David Fincher for Mank. And then here he is, Lee Isaac Chung for Minari. Chloe Zhao for Nomadland and Emerald Fennell for Promising Young Woman. Do we think there's going to be any surprises in this category or is everyone leaning towards Zhao or Chung?
BC: Uh, I'm leaning towards Zhao, for sure. I mean, you know, wrote, written, directed, produced, you know, the, the, the triple threat. Uh, you know, it'd be really cool to see Lee Isaac Chung take it. I mean, Fincher, get out of here. You already got seven, uh, you know, step back. Um, but yeah, you know, I'm, I'm leaning towards Zhao.
NR: Me too. Oh my she does phenomenal work with Nomadland. Like, come on, man. Hope, despair, doubt. Oh, she brought it. And she's a woman so come on, look.
PM: I think Zhao and, um, you know, with, uh, apologies to Chung and Vinterberg who I thought did, uh, I think that's a marvelously controlled film too. Um, Another Round, you know.
KF: Well, our final one and of course, you know, we can't cover all of them, but this is the one.
BC: Sound editing.
KF: Yes. Exactly. [laughter] Best documentary short, that's what everybody tuned in for. Best Picture. So our nominees, uh, I won't go into naming off all the producers because there's several for all these, uh, The Father.
BC: What do they do anyway, you know?
KF: Yeah. Well, if you want to know what they do tune into next month's podcast, when we have a producer panel hosted by our executive director, Kathryn Tucker. There is my shameless plug for the next episode of Reel Talk.
BC: See, I set you up for that one. That was, uh, it was all planned.
KF: It was an assist. Uh, okay. So, uh, Best Picture, we have The Father, Judas and the Black Messiah, Mank, Minari, Nomadland. There's several...uh, Promising Young Woman, Sound of Metal, and Trial of the Chicago 7. Bo, let's start with you.
BC: Oh man. Starting with me. Um, uh, this is tough. You know, this is a tough category because there's a lot riding on this. And, um, you know, like you said, at the very beginning of this podcast, Mank, you know, while a very interesting film about one of the most influential films ever made in American cinema, which is a, I mean, it's, it's both a love letter and hate mail, uh, to Hollywood at the same time. Um, I just don't think that the world right now is ready for a movie about a bunch of rich old white guys to win, uh, an Academy Award. Um, so gonna, gonna pass on that one. I, I'm going to flip a coin probably between Nomadland and Judas and the Black Messiah, um, for a couple of different reasons. I mean, I, I want to lean way more towards Nomadland just because you've got, uh, the, the, like I said, writer, director, producer, Chloe, over there, just knocking it out of the park, Frances McDormand knocked it out of the park. You've got real-world people. Borderlines documentary to actual narrative, you know. It, it just checking all the interesting boxes that makes a very, very amazing film. So that's, that's going to be my pick, but with a, with a kind of a lean to Judas and the Black Messiah.
KF: Niketa?
NR: Okay. I really want it to be from home team with Minari, but you know, I, I don't see it. Uh, if it was my choice, yeah, it would go to Minari, but I am kind of stuck between Judas and the Black Messiah and Nomadland. I'm going lean...oh my God, this is so hard. Man. All right. All right. Judas and the Black Messiah...this is, ah, so hard. I'm also throwing honorable mentions for Soul because I love me some animation, but we ain't talking about animation. We talking about Best Picture.
KF: It was nominated in the animation category.
NR: Yeah, I keep my fingers crossed. So, but I think, I think it's a toss up between Judas and Black Messiah and Nomadland, which I'm probably leaning towards. No, I'm in a bit, sorry. I don't know.
KF: Call it a draw. Philip?
PM: I think it's sort of a, it's an amazing year when a film like Nomadland actually seems to be the favorite right now. I mean, I, I think they, I think that maybe that's, I haven't looked at the odds, but I think Nomadland is going to win and I think it probably should win. And then it's one of the signal films of this year, and this is a really weird year we just been through. And I think it's sort of, it's, it's a perfect 2020 year. Uh, I would love to see, I mean, Minari, it's a great film and Lee Isaac Chung is going to do more great films because the work he's done before has been really good. And, um, and like I said, it's a memory play and it's lovely and it's gentle and it's not the kind of movies that wins Oscars, you know. But Nomadland isn't either, you know. It's sort of like if you were looking for the, you know, big Oscar kind of traditional thing, you'd look at Trial of the Chicago 7, or you'd look at maybe Judas and the Black Messiah through that historical drama sorta thing. But I just don't think so. I think it's going to be Nomadland all the way. I could be wrong. That's probably the kiss of death.
NR: Just her presence is Oscar-bait, like, you know what I mean. So, that's why I kind of feel like they're going to give it to Nomadland. Cause she's just phenomenal. And you know, she backs other actresses and people of color in the industry. She's great, man. I just, yeah…
BC: There could be one of those moves at the Academy. We'll do, we'll be like, okay, Nomadland got best actress, best screenplay, best director. We can't also give it Best Picture. And then they're going to shift and then they'll give it to something like Judas and the Black Messiah, which will be the, the second pick towards the end. And that's something that the Academy will do. You know, you'd be like, oh, well obviously it's going to be this one, but they're like, nah, let's, let's divide it up. So, you know, everybody gets to play and that's why that's my second lean is going to be Judas and the Black Messiah.
KF: Well, I'm going to go for Minari as a dark horse candidate for this. And uh, I mean, I agree probably with the, with the things you guys are saying, Nomadland and Judas, but I would love just because it's an Arkansas story and I want to see, I mean, it's just great to see it be a hit because in a non-COVID world, it probably would have went under everybody's radar. And so it's fantastic to see that happen, but that's what I want. I really want Minari. So, we'll see.
BC: Can I get more shout outs to non-English language films getting nominated? Like hear me out, ever since Parasite kind of blew the doors open to where people will go, hey man, I guess I can read these subtitles. And it's like, we're, we're opening the world to like amazing cinema that's not always in our native language.
PM: Well, that's, that's optimistic. I hope so. I hope so. But I still run into so many people that I, you have to talk into watching a subtitled film. I think that it's, it'd be great. And the funny thing with the Golden Globes nominating Minari is, you know, foreign language film or whatever category. I mean, it's sort of...
KF: Well, hopefully they rewrite the rules after that and, and you and Minari is just a perfect Arkansas story. And that's the thing like I'm gonna, like, I know my mom will totally watch it. My dad would be one of those subtitle people, but I'm going to make him watch it. When it comes out on a Blu-ray I'm going to buy it. And I don't buy a lot of movies, but I will. And I'm going to be like, you're going to love this. And I guarantee you will love it when it's all over. Like, he didn't like the idea when I first took him to Crystal Bridges and then he saw that there were like paintings of shooting bears. And he was like, oh, I'm gonna like this place. So yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a cranky old farmer, from South Arkansas watch it. He's gonna love it. And hopefully we get more of that in the future. I hope so. Or at least they get the acknowledgement they deserve through award shows, uh, to broaden their audiences. But with that we're going to wrap it up. We've had a great conversation today. Philip Martin, Niketa Reed, Bo Counts. Thank you all for being here before we go. Uh, Philip, we'll start with you. If people want to follow you, they should obviously subscribe to the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette. But, uh, do you want to throw out a Twitter handle or any other way that they can follow along with you?
PM: Oh sure. The Twitter handle is @borkdog. B-O-R-K-D-O-G, borkdog. And you can find me on Facebook and you can, if you're looking for me, you can find me. It's not, not terribly hard.
KF: Uh, Niketa, Arkansas Soul.
NR: Yes. A-R-G-O-T-S-O-U-L.com. Look us up. Just hit us up.
KF: Bo, Drive-In Speaker Box. How can people follow along?
BC: Google it, Drive-In Speaker Box, wherever you find your podcasts or on Facebook Live, Twitch, YouTube. We're out there, man. You find us live every Monday night, eight o'clock Central Standard Time.
KF: I listen to you guys on Spotify myself if I can't catch you on Facebook.
BC: All right. Thanks man. So, yeah. Awesome.
KF: Well, I appreciate you all being here. This has been a really fun conversation and you're welcome back. Anytime.
PM: Anytime, anytime you need me, I'm, I'd be happy to come back.
BC: Thanks for having us, Kody.
PM: With these people, too. Have us all come back all the time. Every year. We'll just squat here. [laugher]
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KF (VO): Reel Talk Arkansas is produced by Christian Leus and Kody Ford. Theme music by Amos Cochran. Thank you for listening. Tune in next time. To find out more about Arkansas Cinema Society, visit our website www.arkansascinemasociety.org.